Quote (Black XistenZ @ 7 Sep 2017 14:06)
then they should have gotten rid of the filibuster. until then, the filibuster is part of the american political process.
in trying to move the goalpost yet again, you're completely missing the point. it's not that i'm unaware it is, the point is that obama did something that t
he majority of americans agree with, by
means that republicans and democrats alike used for significantly more controversial decisions before him, after republicans in congress
blocked it for purely political reasons.
so acting like this is such an outrageous wrong that desperately needed "fixing" by repealing it and sending it back to the very people who have shown they will happily hold these people hostage to further their own political careers, is just dishonest and an empty talking point.
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 7 Sep 2017 14:06)
whenever trump does anything, there is a one-sided outcry from liberal and progressive activist groups and the liberal media. sometimes, the usual suspects from the cuckservative wing of the republican party like graham, flake and mccain join in.
what I meant was a real outcry that truly reaches across the aisle.
bipartisan outcry like after his charlottesville reaction and his fail to repeal obamacare? let me know how much that impacted him...
so tell me, what does "real outcry" look like and how would it, in your opinion, influence trump?
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 7 Sep 2017 14:06)
they would fall back to the status they had before 2012. if that situation is oh so cruel and injust (and congress doesnt act on it for whatever reason), why didnt obama unilaterally launch DACA during the first four years of his presidency? why didnt the immigration-dove bush jr do it, or bill clinton?
prior to obama's DACA order, the issue of the status of the dreamers was considered unsatisfying by many, but it wasnt considered as something that requires immediate action. but now that trump threatens to return to the old status quo, this old status quo is suddenly portrayed as inhuman and unbearable by liberals.
thats not convincing at all and easy to see through. in the paragraph above, you accused republicans in congress of holding the dreamers hostage for their political goals. but if you're honest, you gotta admit that democrats are doing the same thing. they are using the fate of the dreamers, whose issues werent pressing enough to make the unhindered democrat government of 2008-2010 help them, as a weapon to put political pressure and blame on trump.
not having this protection while a reasonable and rational president, who actually targets criminal illegals first, is in office is something different than not having it while someone who not only ran on deporting as many illegals as possible, but who also already has a track record of deporting law abiding, well integrated and tax paying immigrants that lived there for decades - especially considering the government has all your data already. was the situation unsatisfying before? most definitely, but is it significantly worse now? only a fool would deny that. being thrown out of a country you call your home is just one tweet, in a situation where the snowflake in office feels he has to pander to the bigots that make up his base, away.
i know for many of you that's hard to do but try to show some empathy, imagine you were in the situation: you grow up in a country, go to school there, have your family and friends there, you're just like any normal kid - and as a young adult you find out that you're not just a "normal kid", you actually have no rights - no right to vote, you can't apply for benefits... so you decide to PAY the government for the security that they won't deport you for two years, just to be able to WORK and PAY TAXES there - in a country that still doesn't grant you aforementioned rights.
and now this president takes away even this temporary security net and leaves it to congress, which has failed you time and again, to solve this issue - an issue a majority of americans across party lines agree should be solved much more "generously" than the safety net provided by DACA had it. imagine you were in that situation, just one angry tweet by a volatile bigot, just one traffic violation away from being ripped out of your current life and deported to a foreign country...
i really don't know how you can actually be sarcastic in your comments about how cruel and unjust that is...
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 7 Sep 2017 14:06)
you're mixing things up here. no one said that no dreamer would ever be deported after DACA runs out. what trump said is that they would not be a priority for deportation. nonetheless, as illegal immigrants, they should of course and obviously be prepared to face deportation. thats the fate their parents chose for them by breaking american law.
what I was referring to is something different: the idea that the trump WH could use the information from the DACA application forms to specifically target dreamers. this kind of breach of trust would indeed be a huge injustice, and it would indeed create a huge public, across-the-aisle outcry. therefore, this specific scenario wont happen.
so this is the part where you tell me what percentage of law abiding, tax paying dreamers you are ok with being deported when congress fails? where you tell me how many it takes that the "outcry" is so massive that... what? legislation magically disappears? trump, sessions, and immigration hardliners suddenly see the error of their ways and decree a humane immigration reform?
again, your "optimistic" predictions are hugely naive and unrealistic - and i'm pretty sure that's not a result of a lack of intelligence on your part, but rather a massive bias towards the current administration and eagerness to defend what's an obvious political move at the cost of the very immigrants you should be most keen on protecting and keeping...
This post was edited by fender on Sep 7 2017 11:08am