In the mean time, here are some quotes from Heraclitus that will get you really excited Eti, along with my explanation in bold

For Heraclitus, the Logos is the universal rational principle that governs everything
10.47 "Listening not to me but to the Logos, it is wise to agree that all things are one." what-is is really the unity of all things
10.48 "Things taken together are whole and not whole, <something that is> being brought together and brought apart, in tune and out of tune; out of all things there comes a unity and out of a unity all things." the Kosmos is the one, the unity of all things. Everything we perceive comes from the Kosmos, from us, and our interaction in and with it. The Kosmos is the unity of everything
10.60 "The most beautiful Kosmos is a pile of things poured out of random." While you may separate things off in the abstract, they are still part of the unified Kosmos. What-is is really just the Kosmos, always moving and changing
10.70 "The same thing is both living and dead, and the waking and the sleeping, and young and old; for these things transformed are those, and those transformed back again are these." motion and change keeps things unified, otherwise they could be divided into parts
We all tend to create our own reality and 10.2 "For this reason it is necessary to follow what is common. But although the Logos is common, most people live as if they had their own private understanding."

Things appear to be distinct and plural, but they are unified and one. The Logos leads us to this, and opposites in a way help illustrate the unity of everything. Heraclitus believes that when used correctly, the senses, along with Logos, help us perceive the underlying unity of the one (see 10.72 & 10.73)
10.72 "They [people in general] would not have known the name of justice if these things [unjust things] did not exist."
10.73 "Disease makes health pleasant and good, hunger [does the same for] satiety, weariness [for] rest."
10.88 "To God all things are beautiful and good and just, but humans have supposed some unjust and others just." Since we don’t have the objective and unlimited knowledge gods do, we suppose (rather than know) things are one way or another. We “assign” opposite qualities to “things”. However, it is the observer’s perception that is different, not the thing they are perceiving. See the below quotes
10.53 "The sea is the purest and most polluted water: to fishes drinkable and bringing safety, to humans undrinkable and destructive."
10.59 "The wisest of humans will appear as an ape in comparison with a god in respect to wisdom, beauty, and all other things."

Heraclitus is a monist, and believes that what-is is one. What-is is the unity and constant change of the Kosmos. Heraclitus' ability to show that opposites, and in turn intermediates between them, are the one, helps to address the fact that we normally say different kinds of things exist. His explanation of different realities created addresses the fact that things we say exist aren’t necessarily the reality of what-is. The Logos is the commonality we all share, and it leads us to the reality that he believes in. The unity of all things in the Kosmos is the reality; we only need to come to an understanding of this.

So Eti, Whatchuknowabouthat? btw, I'd suggest doing what I did, and explaining and interpreting quotes you post, rather than just posting them :/

This post was edited by mike14e on Nov 25 2012 10:57am

Sorry, but assume 2+2=5 (or Berlin is capitol of Canada.. or anything false is true) is NOT logic for anyone with a rational mind... I did not even read the rest of your post.

mike14e, this is not very clear to me.
About the explanation of the quotes I post... just read The Present and The Present (will religion) and you should understand the quotes
If you have questions, just pm me and I will answer.
I can only show you the door, you have to walk through it... You have to check things for yourself, I can not check things for you. Do not believe me, or take anything I quote for granted, just check for yourself... see the quote in post #129 in this thread.
"None but ourselves can free our minds"

New rule: No trying to teach someone logic if he is completely incapable of understanding even the concept of what logic IS.

If you read the post, you'd know bard isn't saying 2 + 2 = 5. We're closed minded, but you refuse to learn anything new? At ghost point, it's safe to say your book can just go fuck itself.

Two legit posts in a row trying to help the OP
Disregards both of them
Okay.jpg

I gave an account of reality, and an argument that the truth is that everything/reality/what-is is one. You wanted another argument/explanation, I provided it.

"I am still waiting for the 999 better explanations you talked about... But I will still not read it if it is off topic."

This post was edited by mike14e on Nov 25 2012 12:29pm

Sorry, but what you posted (and I read it) is not a better explanation of universal truth of life and death.
Read the 6 first page of The Present here http://www.truthcontest.com/entries/the-present-universal-truth/
This is the best explanation (the following pages are a developed explanation of this 6 pages) I could find.

Now feel free to keep going with the free bumps, but do not except an answer from me.
I like to keep this on top so I may answer anyway, but if you have a question and want to be sure I will answer just pm me.

Oh and in case Bard, benther, sylvannos and everyone else still did not get it : this is not about me... This is also not about what is logic.
This is about what is the truth about life and death ?
This is about do you have a better explanation that can be understood by anyone (including people with low IQ like me, including kids...) ?
Do you have anything that can help mankind to wake up and stop with the lies/illusions that are destroying this planet and killing people ?
Do you have anything that can help mankind to unite, stop with inequalities ?
People are starving everywhere in this world, including in the so called most developped contry "United" States of America... do you have anything that can help people change their minds so they stop waste their money to buy useless products ?
I could go on so long, but I do have better things to do with my time.
While you guys reject the obvious, I know a lot people in this world who desire to change, to agree and unite --> I prefer give my time to help them.
That is why I do not want to debate with you about obvious things.
I am not selfish, I just want to help people who are opened to change.
So I will keep posting everything that could help truth seekers, I don't care what you think.
If I answer your post, it is just to keep this thread on top.
I would like to thank you all again for the help keeping this on top, love you all.

I love that mike14e went through the trouble of formatting all of that and even bolding the most relevant parts, and Eli's response was simply "Nuh uh!"

heh he is a recent convert to "the present" cult (current membership 1 apparently).

Eti:
Sure it is, what is your critique of it? Life and death are just instances of the ever-changing one (see 10.70).

I read the 1st couple of pages, the author's argument for immortality is inadequate to say the least. While you make not be conscious of being unconscious, you can cease to be. This argument assumes immortality to try and prove immortality, and that just does not work. This is definitely not the best argument.

Heraclitus would say we are all but one, we come to be and cease to exist as part of the changing of the one. This can be grasped by anyone imo. Also, since we are all one, and united there is a strong basis for unity and removing inequalities.

From what I read at the beginning of the present it seems inequality is allowed and justified:
"If you are born with advantages, you can have more good times than bad times in your life, but when you die, you are reborn with disadvantages, and have more bad times than good times and vice versa. In the long run, no one has it better or worse than anyone else does, because life will always balance eventually. It is the known nature of the universe we live in."