what "obvious reason"? you mean offering protection to a country that asks for it, or do you have a different "obvious reason"? maybe try facts for once, not vague and empty insinuations.

was ukraine's desire for protection unreasonable, or was it well founded? is that such a difficult question to answer?

From YOUR perspective (Russia bad) of course it's well founded and Russia should shut up and roll over.

In the real world where the West and Russia are adversaries for a very long time Russia unsurprisingly decided it would not roll over.

i specifically asked YOUR opinion though. do YOU think ukraine's desire for protection was unreasonable or not?

also, how does UKRAINE joining NATO mean that RUSSIA "rolls over"? you know they are different countries, right?

This post was edited by fender on Apr 2 2023 04:07pm

I would definitely prefer a stable situation instead of ongoing NATO expansion and what has resulted.

edit:

You know the situation, the West and Russia are adversaries.

This post was edited by Djunior on Apr 2 2023 04:13pm

so you think that russia determining who ukraine is allowed to ally with is "a stable situation"? which other rights of a sovereign nation should ukraine have abandoned in order to create "a stable situation"?

again my question: do you realise that ukraine is an independent country, and that is does NOT belong to russia?

Independent lol

This is like hearing a child talk about geopolitics

not what i had in mind and not pretty, but a possibility for sure

since you took my version i will ignore that ukraine wanting to join NATO/"the west" was not exactly an organic process

surely such an arrangement would not have given ukraine long term security against an aggression, i can see that

instead i was hoping that both blocks would turn ukraine into a true neutral zone and trade hub between east and west, they would not join EU or NATO, the west would guarantee ukranian territory vs aggression

business is the best way to avoid conflict in my opinion

all wishful thinking of course and probably impossible since the coup and the first russian intervention immediately after

please elaborate. which nation, which alliance could provide such a guarantee without running into the exact same problem as NATO?

imo this war has really shown us how strongly ukrainians reject the russian way, what they are willing to invest and sacrifice in order to not become a puppet like belarus. the resistance they put up clearly illustrates that their desire to ally with the west is very much organic and widespread. they didn't just roll over and welcome the russians as liberators - not even close.

i think that when attributing "shares of the blame" (as you put it in your previous post) for this war, we have to look at who would have had to make which sacrifice to prevent it:

- ukraine would have to give up its right to political self-determination
- russia would have to give up its ambition to territory that we all (at least pretend to) agree isn't even theirs

i really think trying to create a bothsidesism out of that is totally unreasonable and only serves to downplay russia's guilt - intended or not. just ask yourself this simple question: which side(s) would agree to immediately stopping all hostilities and restoring rightful territorial ownership of all contested territories? i think we both know the answer.

When adults want bed time stories of good vs evil, they watch youtube videos on how mainstream media lies. The stories act as consolation to those who alienate themselves from the sheep by preaching about the truth.

that would be NATO

the main problem for russian geopolitics is not necessarily ukraine joining NATO on paper, its the presence of NATO troops at their "underbelly" next to the critical regions east of the ukrainian-russian border

and what would happen with the sevastopol base, i dont think NATO's number 1 bogeyman would be allowed a base on member territory? they will never give that up

i think they would have been cool, if you gave them that

i forgot to put this into the other post, but when you say that ukraine does not have full rights of self determination, then this is the hard truth

minor powers cant do whatever the fuck they want, this is the reality, its not how it should be, but it is

germany and its people were never asked, if they wanted to be an american bimbo state and still be occupied by foreign troops, but this is the reality and the price for the great war

of course ukranian nationalists with their wet dreams about destroying russia wouldnt agree, but we dont know the organic answer of ukraine to the question, if they prefered being the eastern switzerland over getting torn into bits

many ukrainians fight bravely, but at the same time many were forced into a uniform by nazi style recruitment and people, who speak out, have literal death squads coming for them

if this is truly the price they want to pay just to give putin the middle finger then good luck, might become the most costly fuck you in history