Yea idk. Maybe you're right, maybe not.

Project strength. Putin calls bluff and invades anyways. Then what? Same end result you're eluding to now. Anytime you talk about managing direct conflict with Russia you're risking obliteration.

Americans don't want to get involved in another ("not our war") war after Afghanistan, unless absolutely necessary (i.e. NATO/Allies get attacked/involed). You're make it seem like this could have been avoided somehow, when the reality is that Putins gon' Put. Biden "Projecting Strength" is theory crafting at best, the guy can barely stay awake. Project strength how?

Maybe Putin didn't invade when Trump was in office because Trump is Trump. Maybe if Trump were still in office he wouldn't invade, but Russia was getting other benefits because of Trump being in office. And not because they were afraid of his "strength". Elaborate if you think differently on Trumps "strength" please

This post was edited by penguinhero on Feb 27 2022 10:04pm

Personally i think the Trump Era of the GOP has made it impossible for us to project anything other than division and stupidity.

Being a pushover is what it got us. No one thinks we are serious or can agree on basic shit like....ya know....punishing a dictator for threatening nuclear war if someone says "no" to them.

That's our whole thing up until Trump. You stayed on our good side or else not the other way around.

I couldn't agree more.

In order to do what you propose 1) you would need to be sure of the invasion or reasonably sure of the invasion 2) spend the capital - political, financial, military - to go send troops to occupy Ukraine which does not have a formal alliance with the US or Nato 3) do this all in the context of the afghanistan withdrawal - with people who would question why they are getting into another conflict after just leaving the last one 4) build up the troop count to actually act as a deterrent so Rossiya doesn't call the bluff and actually acts a a tripwire. Ukraine is the largest European nation, you can't just send 5k troops there there is simply too much land. That's not a simple thing and its not really clear that this could have taken place even with the benefit of hindsight. You're talking about a huge expansion of Nato troops that until now many countries would have questioned whether it was necessary at all.

Is it necessary now however is a better question. Do you really want to watch Georgia get gobbled up just because of some technical bullshit about it not being able to join? Probably not, send some US/Nato troops on an extended/indefinite vacation there.

This post was edited by FORt-HOBO on Feb 27 2022 11:40pm

Georgia already had it happen in 2008, they went towards the west, Russia invaded and took over South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

America should either do, or don't. There are legitimate reasons why America didn't want to back up Ukraine after the fall of Afghanistan, a country in Russia's back yard and risking plunging us back into the cold war if we tried. Russia has far more at stake and far more interest in Ukraine than we ever will. Its unclear if Trump would have allowed an invasion unchecked, but Biden flat out announced it. I don't think we're in a position to judge whether that was a good or bad decision in and of itself. We had the alternative- place troops and armor into Ukraine, tell Russia it would be an act of war to invade it, treat it just like NATO or even fold them directly into NATO. It would be a huge provocation, no doubt. So it wasn't unreasonable for Biden to make that decision, or even to broadcast it so bluntly
We're trying to have our cake and eat it too with this one, and its having disastrous effect. We're right back at the worst of the cold war, we just instantly threw the Iron Curtain back into full effect, except this time around we're actually a minority on the world stage. India, China, the Mideast, Africa didn't fall on our side. Even Israel won't join the USA/EU coalition and is maintaining their ties to Russia


I cannot stress this enough: I just listened to 4 years of people screaming that Trump was isolating America on the world stage and tearing down our role as the world's foremost superpower with his America First foreign policy and Navarronomics. We just drove the biggest wedge into geopolitics since the Berlin Wall fell, and only the USA, EU and their respective vassal states are on our side of it. The world superpowers and even secondary powers are not. We're going to throw up all these economic barriers that the rest of the world won't follow. We're going to greatly jeopardize the power of the US dollar as the world's reserve currency, and even Switzerland is abandoning its pretense of being the neutral banker.
This is the Star Spangled Curtain. Our coalition is smaller than last time around. The biggest superpower in the world has nothing at stake in Ukraine and laughs as America and Russia face off to our mutual detriment, and just like Russia built economic leverage over the EU now China builds economic leverage over Russia. We're not aligning the world against Russia, we're aligning the world against ourselves.

I read an article that said some nations(the anglo ones) were looking to take a more confrontational approach months before this really became an issue but some nations(think the article hinted at Germany) were less willing to get involved because they thought diplomacy was the solution. Its hard to do exactly what you're suggesting because it would have needed some form of consensus or its just the US going it alone or with little help. Also confused about the European vassal states you're mentioning... since they're all free countries. Remind me who is currently a vassal outside of Belarus(Russia). I also think you underestimate how much of a build up you would have needed to make this happen and when.

I also think you highly underestimate how much of the world has gotten onboard with what has been put in place. I literally don't know how you came to the conclusion that Russia isn't somehow the minority here. By total population count in particular countries? That's not a great indicator of who and what is 'on-board.' Nobody cares that the Congo isn't on board, they're not in a position to sanction anyone. Right now the Ruble has dropped like 40%(maybe OP needs to convert his rubles into fg it might have more value) and Russia has pretty much alienated the entirety of Europe by presenting themselves as an aggressive conqueror who uses paper-thin justifications for its actions. That isn't going to be forgotten.

This post was edited by FORt-HOBO on Feb 28 2022 12:20am

We are opposing an invasion though. We're funneling weapons into Ukraine and we helped nuke Russia's economy. If Biden said that NATO troops on the ground were a possibility, no one would believe him. Most important, Putin wouldn't have believed him and he would have invaded anyway. It's an empty threat and it would have made it much more difficult to form a coalition. You and the rest of the Russophiles would immediately condemn Biden for escalating an already tense situation and you'd be correct to do so.

I can assure that no nukes will be used. There will be a coup in Russia where Putin is executed before the Russian military follows those orders so there's no need to get hysterical. Hell, he's already begging for a bullet to the head because he grossly miscalculated the costs of this war in terms of lives and rubles. If Ukrainian defense officials are to be believed, more Russians died this week than Americans died during the ENTIRE Iraq War. Yes, Ukraine will eventually fall if Russia doesn't pull out but this has been an unmitigated disaster for them.

Most of the world has condemned Russia for what they've done and each country must carefully balance their values, diplomacy, and economy. Some countries have the luxury of taking a really tough stance (i.e. UK). Some countries like Japan and South Korea are participating in sanctions. Hell, even the Swiss and Chinese are complying with some of the sanctions because our money is more valuable than the Russian's. It's important to have consensus but I don't think the entire world needs to do what the UK did in order to prove a point. We're not isolating ourselves from the rest of the world through our actions and we're certainly proving our point.

i am critical of the western role in this conflict as well, but i dont agree

most of the world, at least those who are somehow significant, is anti russian right now, the very best russia got was indifference

china is china, they are looking for exploits as always, but russia has no allies right now

i think the only statement in support came from venezuela, where an egg costs 10 trillion in local currency

whats really shocking for me is this however:

the current "the west, EU, NATO = peace and freedom" narrative will not erase the fact that the west had no problem letting things escalate

turning ukraine into a neutral zone was not even on the table, the ukranian president talked about NATO membership and nukes in ukraine, the EU is still provoking as we speak

i was wrong about not expecting a full invasion, but it was clear that putin wouldnt let nuclear weapons in ukraine happen under any circumstance

This post was edited by JohnnyMcCoy on Feb 28 2022 04:40am

FSB intelligence on Ukrainian attitudes that informed how they thought the population would react to a war: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/ukraine-through-russias-eyes

Apparently we've all overestimated the Russian military, including Vlad Putin.