we all know that already



well, ultimately muslims will have to accept that in our countries people can say whatever they want about their religion, deal with it or leave
we are dealing with that as well in every aspect of life and if its just trash talk about our favorite football club
your statement about islam not being used to criticism is absolutely correct and how did that happen? because diversity, freedom of speech and religion do not exist in muslim majority countries

i agree that discussions are needed and there are indeed needless provocations, however our core values are not up for negotiation and while i am sure that you agree, you are undermining that concept at the same time by being too liberal

wilders is an extreme example, people publishing mohammed cartoons are suffering the same
in germany a woman who founded a liberal "mosque for everyone", where everyone can go and that does not have gender separation, is under constant threat of death and needs protection
she seems to be a few hundred years ahead i guess

i strongly disagree on your conclusion, we dont need increased efforts on both sides
we are doing everything and more to somehow integrate these people and its still not working for the majority

as a matter of fact, countries with successful migration like australia operate the exact opposite way
aside from the facts that illegal migration is completely shut down and people are handpicked, its your job and yours alone to integrate and fit in
the united states have accomplished something similar by mere economical pressure, there is no welfare state to support you, if you do not integrate while having the skills to earn your living

aside from more control overall the pressure on migrants has to increase and not the other way around

Tbh those protests were not that big. Pakistan has more than 100m people and afaik the protests never got bigger than a couple thousand. They're allowed to protest, just as much as we are allowed to host a Mohammed cartoon competition. I know it's very likely Wilders had to quit the competition due to safety concerns, but honestly a part of me suspects that was the plan all along. Get the uproar, then cancel and claim you had to do it because of outside influence. Classic Wilders strategy. Guy didn't even manage to support a government properly, he's written off as a politician.

And like Knoppie said, Pim Fortuyn was far more eloquent (he also was gay, a big influence on his dislike of Islam), and Pim was also far more left-wing economically. Wilders, as a descendant of the VVD (his old party), just tends to vote in line with them unless it's about immigration. I still sometimes wonder what would've happened if Pim wasn't murdered. Would have been very interesting, and Wilders likely would have never had the momentum to start his own party.

The day I'm finding out you might be more liberal on integration than I am. Since, I don't really like the individual, make it on your own, aspect of it. Although that depends a little bit on the type of integration, ppl coming here for their work, sure be liberal, they don't even need an integration course, for a spouse: yes be liberal, but you need to accomplish the integration course, as a refugee from a warzone or similar situation: more is needed, sometimes even a shrink, additional courses to apply their skills in our country and sometimes even relocation to where these skills are in short supply. We also need a ton of construction workers at this time: get them enrolled in there. The other part about doing more can be reflected in the language lessons given by volunteers, we and probably Germany, have these type of language coaches. It also means, having a local on the floor once in a while to understand what the fuck those received letters mean. That's a form of participation increasing integration. From the other side it's the same story, I like your liberal mosque, thinking we need more ideas for those. Better than some of the Saudi privately funded Wahabi mosques! This shit goes both ways.

But the rest of our system is pretty shitty, although you might actually like it: Refugee status holders get a loan to be exploited by the free market of education, giving ppl a worthless education and a debt to pay back. The liberal plan
As for Australia and the US.. I don't think they are that successful. Australia has a refugee concentration camp for boat immigrants and not integrated small societies from more wealthy countries, like annoying Dutch ppl. The US has large pockets of not registered working immigrants, dunno how you'd like that tbh.

As a note on it all for perspective: The whole west is shutting down. We don't see what is happening in the world because we are focused on ourselves and our slow decline in our current age, while blaming everyone else.. Average wealth world wide is going up while human displacement is going out of control. We think we are open but the middle eastern countries have more immigrants right now that we do. That is where the real refugee/immigration problem is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population : mach em up by percentage of total population
And for Syrians:



/e We might actually differ on the conclusion for quite a while, as I see our democracy to represent our ppl, all of them. And as for any country, we should go for progress and reach the top with the ideas we all have. I'll say this somewhat trying to give you a piece of mind: That will not lead to a future with Sharia laws. Religion and state, are separate.




Yes, seeing them protest feels good. They surely can express their opinion. and you actually have a point on Wilders' intention and execution of the plan. Like most of what he does is not meant to get approvement from the government, but from citizens, who like him for "saying what he thinks" and crossing the lines. Ppl tend to like the drama, a bit of badness and being ballsy over the political correct answers.

As for Pim still being here. Yes, that would have been something different. I'd probably wouldn't have voted for him, but he would have been a way better constructive politician than Wilders. Although I can't deny him having an influence, he moved quite a bit of our politics to the right, yet always fails when he has to cooperate, making him a worthless legislator.

This post was edited by Knoppie on Aug 31 2018 05:53pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/19/chechens-protest-cartoons-prophet-muhammad-charlie-hebdo

there were much larger demonstrations than those you mention, but to be fair chechens are special in that regard
they are easily the most radical muslims on the planet



we have to clearly distinguish betweem refugees and migrants that come here to work, thats actually not happening and one of the big problems

skilled workers can come here legally, the EU and its member countries provide lots of opprtunities for that
we dont need more construction workers, the market is already more than full with eastern europeans with shitty pay and terrible working conditions
there is no extra need for low skilled labor in all of europe, just look at the unemployment and especially in germany there is a strategy of getting every possible person into the country to keep the costs low, while spreading a fake narrative of a lack of skilled workers/engineers etc

and dont get me started on the loopholes that we have, there is a massive problem with eastern europeans (mostly gypsy clans) creating fake corporations with fake contracts to get access to our welfare state (i will gladly provide a shitton of sources if you like)
no sane person would ever oppose getting actual craftsman and academics and these people will be just fine, they dont need babysitting
as a matter of fact the EU and its states cant even deal with the migration movements on our own continent and thats one of the reasons for brexit

refugees however, by definition, get temporary protection so there is no need for integration
i do not oppose language courses and education, since you mentioned construction workers it might be a great idea to provide training opportunities
if there is a country on the planet right now, that does need young and strong workers its syria, if at least some speak our languages its even better

sending refugees back to rebuild their towns and cities with european know-how, all sides could profit from that, but the EU does NOT plan to ever send people back, instead they even plan to bring in more refugees/migrants by the millions
it looks like government forces will soon attack idlib and if that battle is concluded the last excuse for refugees not returning to syria will have vanished
as a matter of fact most of syria is already safe

the third and largest group are illegal migrants, there is no need to do anything with them in europe except deportation

"The whole west is shutting down."

thats a weird statement, when the exact opposite is happening as i mentioned above
africa alone produces over 700k more people per week, just a look at the numbers will make every sane person realise that mass migration can never be the solution
to make things even more ridiculous, we are talking about some of the most densely populated countries on earth, we certainly dont need more inhabitants,
at current rate especially the muslim population will grow dramatically and they will make an impact on our state (the netherlands already have their migrant party with unacceptable views), native young children are already a minority in countries like germany, simple mathematics will do the rest

you do know the video with the "gum ball guy"? i am sure you do and he makes it pretty clear that we are not solving the problem

is that a brexit deal i can't read all that nonsense i don't care about bleh bleh blah blittpity blah

No, but this is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45385421

and what's your conclusion ?

She can't really say anything else. It would either undermine her own government that crafted chequers or undermine the UK negotiating position by conceding the possibility of a second referendum.

If we can't get an acceptable deal then I think a second referendum should be considered, but only at that point.

This post was edited by dro94 on Sep 2 2018 02:14am

So just wait, yep. I have no idea if europe will give up or not.

worst act of terrorism to Pakistan - making Blasphemy Cartoon of Prophet



This post was edited by HeLiCaL on Sep 2 2018 08:40am