My numbers are pre-lockdown. Your clear attempt to blame lockdowns is a transparent lie. I can't even find any "poverty rate" statistics that are post-lockdown, because nobody really knows. There are some estimates, but nothing I'd trust enough to post.

Your claim that minimum wage is not a factor in loss of jobs yet cheap immigration work visas are the problem is not only patently false, it's what you lefty types call "actively racist". The on-shore foreign workers still get paid minimum wage. The problem isn't them, it's how many jobs there are. A minimum wage increase or decrease doesn't really impact Walmart. But it doesn't generate more Walmarts, either. It doesn't have much of an impact on McDonalds or Burger King either, nor does it generate more of such establishments. The problem comes when small stores and restaurants who currently have to compete on razor thin margins vs large corporations now face a severe hike in overhead.

2 pronged. PR mainly. and also that american quality that causes us to be different than all sorts of other countries in the first world. why dont we have universal healthcare, paid family leave, working retirement safety, extensive vacation pay, etc? america cant be both lagging behind the rest of the world and also a direct comparison when it suits your argument. but rest assured, i dont want to argue. i know. the day a 15 dollar min wage gets approved mcdonalds and other industry leaders will start to bleed off workers JUST slow enough that they can handle the PR fallout. period. 10 person shifts will near instantly become 8, then 6, then 4, all over a decade and eventually the class of workers were seeking to empower through min wage increases wont exist.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Feb 7 2021 10:29am

Those comparisons arent really meaningful.. Were talking private businesses not government. Businesses can change much faster, so what is the reason that the rest of the world has not had this happen whem their minimum wage is so much higher already? Theyve had plenty of time to do so slowly.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on Feb 7 2021 11:20am

First, which "rest of the world" are we discussing again? Second, the insertion of automation has slowly been being carried out all over the world. It's not just a US thing. Not everyone is going to enslave minorities to pick cotton like China, most of us are well past that point.

Tier-stepping the automation has always been a thing. From vehicle assembly lines going robotic to computer assembly lines going robotic (Dell's entire business model) to you name it. A huge chunk of the middle class has virtually disappeared over the last 30 years. Now you're seeing kiosk-style ordering machines, and fewer actual cashier types, Grocery stores have invested heavily in self-checks and reduced the number of available cashiers, even many regular restaurants (not even fast food!) buying pre-machine-prepped sealed ingredients fast-food style to cut down on labor costs...

The automation is already here, it's just been gradual enough that no matter how many people point it out to you, you simply don't notice. Both China and Japan are really big on the concept, and don't care as much about the "But muh job!" argument. Here's China's take on things:



Here's one from Japan from 8 years ago: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2i7687 which is a tad different, in that actual plating is done by a human staff, but all the rest is done by machine. That's from 8 years ago btw.

Then you have the San Francisco "proof of concept" designer-style burger maker from a few years back that proved you could even make high end burgers start to finish without the staff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TBnwh7U1AU

Overall, the issue with automation in things like restaurants has very little to do with "muh jobs" and everything to do with cost, risk assessment, and quality standards. Now that standards are closing in on "as good or better than people could do" and people have gotten more used to the idea of self-service elsewhere, it's less of a concern.

Likewise, I doubt it'll be too long before more of a robotic stocking and warehousing method is used in walmart style settings. They've already implemented "peopleless scrubbers" in many stores to replace some of the maintenance staff, which also happen to scan outs on shelves while scrubbing the floors of the isles.

It's all coming. And minimum wage increases simply provide a greater reason to invest more heavily in it at an earlier time, rather than easing into it gradually.

This post was edited by InsaneBobb on Feb 7 2021 11:44am

Wrong

Completely incorrect, there is a huge gap between what is supposed to happen and what actually happens.
Most people on work visas are exploited and paid well under minimum wage.
Guess what, our minimum wage is over 15 usd and mcdonalds business plan here is to never have to drive more than 5 minutes to reach a mcdonalds in a city and they are succeeding.
We don't have Walmart, they can't exploit people so they never came over.

This post was edited by Plaguefear on Feb 7 2021 04:56pm

What you're saying is only "true" when you are assessing small and gradual increases in minimum wage. Australia did not massively hike their minimum wage to double it's rate overnight.

An overnight increase to $15/hour would literally double the minimum wage of some of our states. It's not something mild and small. This is the part you simply fail to comprehend, no matter how many people try to make you understand.

There are fewer countries that you think with minimum wage significantly above the United States. And because the United States allows states to set their own higher min wage, the % GDP comparisons are inaccurate when we analyze it at the federal level. The minimum wage in Alabama / Mississippi is already at "first world" levels. Doubling it to $15 would place in a bucket with a load of impoverished, developing countries with huge informal economies.

If your business can't survive paying a living wage then it doesn't deserve to exist.

What percentage of GDP is a "living wage"?