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Oct 13 2023 06:10pm
Quote (JessiWan @ Oct 13 2023 05:07pm)
I think he's saying that it's difficult for Israel to do this, without incurring huge losses.


The whole situation is difficult.
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Oct 13 2023 06:11pm
Quote (JessiWan @ Oct 13 2023 05:56pm)
It's like I have said before, but nobody seems to take my suggestion seriously: Israel should take the massive aid it receives from the West, save it for a couple of years, and then buy a small un-populated island, and re-settle their people there. Kind of hard to die to terrorists when there are none around you. In fact, if Israel asked the western powers now, they could probably get a sum that would accomplish this with enough left over to take very good care of its citizens for many years. The West wants peace just as much as Israel does.

And I know, that area is their ancestral land, it's holy to them, and holds special significance to them, so I understand that they would be reluctant to leave. But they need to be realistic. As long as there are Israelis and Palestinians living in the same area, there will be Hamas and there will be bloodshed. And unless they are willing to commit outright genocide, I honestly don't see terrorism and atrocities stopping, ever. So they need to ask themselves, which is more important, being able to live in peace and not having to worry about being attacked ruthlessly by terrorists, or hanging onto the the land that their ancestors used to live on? I think I know which one I would pick.


Or Arabs just shouldn’t be crazy terrorist that call for a day of jihad. It’s really easy to see who the enemy is as the Arabs protests all over the Middle East today to show their support of Hamas. If you’re an infidel which you are then you deserve to die. Do you want to die, because you’re promoting the people that want you dead.

This post was edited by Landmine on Oct 13 2023 06:12pm
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Oct 13 2023 06:12pm
Quote (Landmine @ Oct 13 2023 05:11pm)
Or Arabs just shouldn’t be crazy terrorist that call for a day of jihad. It’s really easy to see who the enemy is as the Arabs protests all over the Middle East today to show the support of Hamas. If you’re an infidel which you are then you deserve to die.


The implication of this is that we should kill all Muslims.
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Oct 13 2023 06:13pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ Oct 13 2023 08:01pm)
Yes.

I'm not sure specifics, but I think it important to identify core values to establish a foundation upon which specifics can be figured out. Those that come to mind would be for the acute situation:

1. Every reasonable effort should be made to diminish the amount of civilian causalities. While I sympathize with the desire to not give Hamas and their supporters more time to plan attacks/boobytrap the area, 24 hours to evacuate 1 million+ people is untenable and aid organizations and hospitals in Gaza have raised concerns. Some of these concerns have been met by Israel in the form of an extension (ie. Israel gave more time for the hospital to evacuate).

2. Every reasonable effort should be made to diminish the amount of civilian suffering (ie. I don't see myself currently agreeing with the decision to cut off water and electricity, although I can sympathize with the desire to do so).

3. Internal messaging within Israel should be on the distinction between Palestinian people and Hamas.

4. Israel needs to be honest about what the plan is for Gaza. Are they going to capture it? Level it? Establish a DMZ buffer after trying to weed Hamas out of the region?

5. Personally, I'd prefer to see an international/UN response rather than Israel making unilateral decisions. Israel is in a state of rage, and decisions are likely to be hasty as a result.

6. Long term: A genuine two-state solution will be needed. Israel needs to stop illegal settlements and correct the ones already made. Palestine needs to cleanse its society of Hamas, have a democratic election, and needs to eradicate the anti-Semitism from their people.



1. This notion that Israel gave no warning or time to evacutate is not true. The attack happened last Saturday, and subsequently they gave dozens of warnings innitially to leave certain areas.

2. Cutting off food, water, energy is done (at least in my opion) to cause civillian movement. Without cutting it off, there is no immediate urgency. Once people are literally starving they are going to head where they are told to.

3. No one cares about the messaging about good or bad Muslims. Recollect 9/11, personally all I remember is everyone in the US seeing red and not giving two shits about collateral damage.

4. They don't have to be honest about anything. It's an active war and they aren't goin to broadcast their moves to the open world. Hamas knowing exactly what will happen would be an intelligence failure for Israel.

5. UN is a largely useless and powerless organization that rarely if ever accomplishes anything. In theory I agree, in practice it just means they Jews do nothing and get no retribution.

6. Agree on two-state, but i'm talking about the immediate.
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Oct 13 2023 06:14pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ Oct 13 2023 08:01pm)
Yes.

I'm not sure specifics, but I think it important to identify core values to establish a foundation upon which specifics can be figured out. Those that come to mind would be for the acute situation:

1. Every reasonable effort should be made to diminish the amount of civilian causalities. While I sympathize with the desire to not give Hamas and their supporters more time to plan attacks/boobytrap the area, 24 hours to evacuate 1 million+ people is untenable and aid organizations and hospitals in Gaza have raised concerns. Some of these concerns have been met by Israel in the form of an extension (ie. Israel gave more time for the hospital to evacuate).

2. Every reasonable effort should be made to diminish the amount of civilian suffering (ie. I don't see myself currently agreeing with the decision to cut off water and electricity, although I can sympathize with the desire to do so).

3. Internal messaging within Israel should be on the distinction between Palestinian people and Hamas.

4. Israel needs to be honest about what the plan is for Gaza. Are they going to capture it? Level it? Establish a DMZ buffer after trying to weed Hamas out of the region?

5. Personally, I'd prefer to see an international/UN response rather than Israel making unilateral decisions. Israel is in a state of rage, and decisions are likely to be hasty as a result.

6. Long term: A genuine two-state solution will be needed. Israel needs to stop illegal settlements and correct the ones already made. Palestine needs to cleanse its society of Hamas, have a democratic election, and needs to eradicate the anti-Semitism from their people.


Sadly we live in the real world and this stuff is just pipe dreaming.

The reality is that if israel did the most possible waiting and giving civilians the most possible time they would just be giving Hamas time to get away, on top of it, they would open massive windows for LOTS of Israeli people to die during the "removal of Hamas".
So using some common sense, israel just had their peoples babies burned and massacred violently, you think they are gonna choose "saving the most amount of Palestinians over saving the most amount of jewish people during the removal of hamas"?

Those two go hand in hand. The softer and more exposure they give their army attempting to remove the terrorists, the more Israelis will die during the process. While the numbers are "more death's on your enemies side" that is obviously the correct choice when trying to prevent the most of your own people from dying, FIRST AND FOREMOST.

Also Palestine self cleansing from Hamas and extremism is in itself a "pipe dream" scenario that's just not going to happen.

This is war and in war Might is Right. Right in the sense of having the least amount of your people die while attempting to resolve the conflict at your doorstep.

This post was edited by iBruno on Oct 13 2023 06:18pm
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Oct 13 2023 06:14pm
Quote (JessiWan @ Oct 13 2023 06:12pm)
The implication of this is that we should kill all Muslims.


no....


they should all convert to Christianity
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Oct 13 2023 06:15pm
Quote (JessiWan @ Oct 13 2023 06:12pm)
The implication of this is that we should kill all Muslims.


Just the ones that call for jihad. They want you dead with every breath they take.
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Oct 13 2023 06:15pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Oct 13 2023 05:13pm)
6. Agree on two-state, but i'm talking about the immediate.


If not now, when?

Also, genuinely curious if you could outline a two state solution that isn’t actually a one state solution.

This post was edited by AleKsRoBerto on Oct 13 2023 06:17pm
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Oct 13 2023 06:17pm
Quote (AleKsRoBerto @ Oct 13 2023 08:15pm)
If not now, when?


When I say 'now' I mean literally days, weeks, months right after this attack. The 'now' to get a 2 state solution here would take years.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Oct 13 2023 06:17pm
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Oct 13 2023 06:17pm
Quote (AleKsRoBerto @ Oct 13 2023 06:15pm)
If not now, when?


Another 50 or 60 years should do it. Once there's no left to speak we can start speaking.

This post was edited by SBD on Oct 13 2023 06:17pm
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