Mar A Lago Raided By Fbi - Topic

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Aug 26 2022 06:20pm

Quote (IceMage @ Aug 26 2022 06:00pm)

First off, let's acknowledge that you've been a Trump toady for the past 6 years, and you'll follow any argument that helps him.

Second, there's not a bunch of legal precedents around a former president taking and withholding sensitive classified documents, because it's never happened before.

Third, the talking points don't seem to acknowledge my (uninformed legally) argument, which is that there needs to be some process regarding a president declassifying documents. The idea in his head has to somehow make it into our reality in order to be relevant. There needs to be something signed or proclaimed. He did none of this, therefore, all his ideas are bullshit.

Fourth, this means he's going to be held legally responsible for all the laws he violated. The threats from the cult will not make this go away.

But again, all that is accomplished by such process is the formalization of the constitutional powers the president holds implicitly. That's the whole executive branch in a nutshell. The power derives from the president, all the bureaucracy and policies and executive orders and guidance memos, just serve to formalize his powers. That's a necessity when it comes to prosecuting anyone other than the president, but its a full paradox when it comes to prosecuting a president. No matter what bureaucracy exists, it cannot constrain the powers of the president from which it derives. If the president doesn't sign or proclaim anything, that's a valid defense in court for some random citizen to claim violates his constitutional protections under the 5th amendment, but its not grounds to form criminal liability for the president himself in court. We don't live in a nightmarish draconian system where you either declare your every action and abide every formality or else we imprison you. Nor does anyone have the authority to declare when a president has used his constitutional powers save the president, because any agency making a counterclaim is usurping that power from the president. He says he exerted his executive powers, they say he didn't, who's determination is final? He was elected president, they weren't. Just like we're not a system that criminalizes every shortcut or informality, we're not a system that criminalizes disputes over authority and jurisdiction. We resolve them civilly.

Black XistenZ

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#1652

Aug 26 2022 06:22pm

Quote (Sioux @ 27 Aug 2022 02:16)

I think they do for the obstruction charge in the search warrant, for the others, I don't think so. For Trump as a former president though, I doubt they would charge him if it was an accident. If you or I or anyone on this forum had these documents at home we'd already be in jail.

Does the search warrant hinge on the obstruction charge, or are the other charges (violation of the espionage act and that other statute I can't quite remember rn) enough?

Sioux

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#1653

Aug 26 2022 06:23pm

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Aug 26 2022 05:22pm)

Does the search warrant hinge on the obstruction charge, or are the other charges (violation of the espionage act and that other statute I can't quite remember rn) enough?

It definitely doesn't hinge on the obstruction. I think they threw that on because he refused to return docs. If he had handed everything over everything in the Spring and said whoopsie daisy I doubt anything would have happened unless they found him selling the documents.

Edit: To elaborate, you don't get to search a residence based on someone obstructing an investigation, you need to actually be looking for something criminal in and of itself.

This post was edited by Sioux on Aug 26 2022 06:25pm

Black XistenZ

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#1654

Aug 26 2022 06:25pm

Quote (excellence @ 27 Aug 2022 02:17)

watch these “documents” end up being a ‘nuclear strategy to nuke a hurricane’

interns had full control of clinton, bush was an inept controlled by warmongers, weinstein had obama’s kid in his employ, biden has been bought and paid for for decades, but some random “document” is the end all.

Trump is not covering himself in glory lately but the lack of clarity is silly. They want to nail him what’s the delay? Politics? They got rid of Nixon right quick over much less than what is accused

They gotta wait for another 1-2 months before they move ahead, so that "Trump drama" dominates the news cycle in the crucial months heading into the midterms and distracts voters from how much everything has gone to shit lately. I'd say moving ahead in mid-September maximizes the political gain for Democrats.

TiStuff

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#1655

Aug 26 2022 07:28pm

TiStuff

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#1656

Aug 26 2022 08:43pm

DOJ Releases Highly Redacted Affidavit Behind Trump Raid!! Here’s What’s In It!
https://www.bitchute.com/video/YNGohDmH6VMw/

“Shifty” Schiff Makes Promise About Trump Raid That Will Only Make Matters Worse
https://www.bitchute.com/video/JZrq2I_OI90/

lefties great whyte hope

This post was edited by TiStuff on Aug 26 2022 09:03pm

thundercock

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Aug 26 2022 09:13pm

Quote (softcoresux @ Aug 26 2022 04:54pm)

Showing that Trump had actual criminal intent is going to be kind of hard here, given he fully cooperated, never tried to hide anything, was completely open about having these documents, allowed them to be inspected. Trump probably didn't even realize what all he had, which would make sense given he doesn't run a very organized operation. Proving his criminal intent here is going to be something like 5000% harder than it would have been with Hillary Clinton. Not to mention any ambiguity at all about Trump's authority to declassify turns into him being not guilty. Why? Because in any criminal prosecution the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. That means any even remotely plausible story, deniability, or just stupidity could easily result in Trump walking. So all the FBI is actually doing is royally pissing off the right. The odds of Trump getting convicted of anything here is next to zero.

The incompetence and stupidity of Trump having these documents, is only superseded by the FBI attempting to go after Trump criminally for these documents. All the FBI is going to accomplish is royally pissing off the right. So either this is some kind of 3d chess by left wing ideologs in the FBI to get Trump to run, because that is who the left wants to run, or this is just complete blind incompetence.

These documents should have just been subpoenaed, they should have approached this from a process of reclaiming the documents only, Trump could have been politically embarrassed for still having these documents, and made to look like a total hypocrite when he went after Hillary for basically the same thing. But in a master stroke of incompetence, some moron at the FBI decided to escalate this to a criminal investigation, flipping this over and making the FBI look like the hypocrite by going after Trump for the same thing that they excused Hillary on.

This is like watching two of the worst chess players on the planet make the most inept moves, only outdone by the even more inept move of their opponent. It is hard to predict who will win/lose when both sides are so utterly incompetent.

The documents WERE subpoenaed and his legal team either lied or were unaware that they were in possession of more documents (hence the receipt from the raid which has TS and SCI markings). The former seems more likely given the number of witnesses who contacted the FBI. So far, it seems like the DOJ is treating him significantly better than they should because they don't want to rock the boat politically speaking.

FantasyWorldII

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#1658

Aug 26 2022 09:20pm

Quote (TiStuff @ 27 Aug 2022 12:43)

doesnt look good for the orange man

TiStuff

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#1659

Aug 26 2022 09:30pm

Quote (FantasyWorldII @ Aug 26 2022 08:20pm)

doesnt look good for the orange man

how come leftie eyes bugged out all the time?

Quote (thundercock @ Aug 26 2022 08:13pm)

ya sure FIB hasnt done any lying in the past

softcoresux

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#1660

Aug 26 2022 10:07pm

Quote (Sioux @ Aug 26 2022 07:16pm)

Keep in mind the specific reason Hillary Clinton was not prosecuted by the DOJ, according to the DOJ, was the difficulty in proving intent for her unlawful possession of classified material. So do I think intent will matter? Yes, yea I do.

Secondarily, I haven’t analyzed these statutes but the number of felony offenses that exist out there that do not require criminal intent is extremely small. The overwhelming bias in U.S. laws, particularly at the felony level is towards the inclusion of some element of criminal intent. Americans, generally speaking tend to be not in favor of convicting someone of a serious criminal offense just based on strict liability or regular old negligence.

Edit 1: for people on the right who think Trump is playing some high level strategy game here, your dumber than he is for being too much of a chaotic bafoon to keep his documents from being a chaotic dumpster fire.

Edit 2: for people on the left that think this is going to end well for you, your missing the big picture. You have nothing but losing options here. Americans In general won’t get worked up over a document crime, they just won’t. No body but people on the right really cared that much about what Hillary did and no one but people on the left are going to care this time.

If you fail to prosecute Trump now the right wins.
If you prosecute Trump and he is acquitted the backlash will be extreme
If you prosecute Trump and win - you remove a weak dumb candidate like Trump from the chess board, which was your greatest asset.

I mean really the only players here dumber than Trump are the leftists that are excited and that’s really saying something.

This post was edited by softcoresux on Aug 26 2022 10:12pm

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