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Mar 17 2015 01:11pm
It appears you've learned nothing.
You are back to spouting the same old "im the evil bad guy out to exploit people" bullshit and pretending it doesn't harm people when you enact legislation that puts them out of a job they want, while yet again failing to understand supply and demand, and willfully ignoring what I said about wages and productivity in favor of appeal to emotion fallacies and willful misrepresentations.
Giant waste of time. A full on display of stubbornness, willful ignorance, maliciousness and arrogance couched in empty naive populist rhetoric and racial slurs.


You should keep asking yourself why racists and unions are massive supporters of minimum wage hikes.

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Mar 17 2015 01:16pm
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Mar 17 2015 01:21pm
^he should watch the video you embedded as I believe they explain it in the video too.
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Mar 17 2015 02:22pm
Hey guys, its been pages since a picture, can you all shut the fuck up and take it somewhere else?



This post was edited by Clicquot on Mar 17 2015 02:26pm
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Mar 17 2015 02:37pm
Quote (Clicquot @ Mar 17 2015 04:22pm)
Hey guys, its been pages since a picture, can you all shut the fuck up and take it somewhere else?

http://i57.tinypic.com/2qwiv0y.jpg



hopeless with all those wannabe intellos

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Mar 17 2015 03:09pm






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Mar 17 2015 03:23pm
Quote (cambovenzi @ 17 Mar 2015 14:11)
It appears you've learned nothing.
You are back to spouting the same old "im the evil bad guy out to exploit people" bullshit and pretending it doesn't harm people when you enact legislation that puts them out of a job they want, while yet again failing to understand supply and demand, and willfully ignoring what I said about wages and productivity in favor of appeal to emotion fallacies and willful misrepresentations.
Giant waste of time. A full on display of stubbornness, willful ignorance, maliciousness and arrogance couched in empty naive populist rhetoric and racial slurs.


You should keep asking yourself why racists and unions are massive supporters of minimum wage hikes.



We are arguing from across the great divide it appears you will grasp the silly notion that a human being is a product and the best business model squeezes the most work for the least pay out of the work force. You want to run free with no protections in place for the working man. Where I would have laws that would keep him safe. Call me a bleeding heart. I believe that the way to stimulate the economy and to produce more jobs is to infuse the economy with more money by paying the hard working people of America a honest wage not the lowest you can possibly get away with. You seem to think that lower wages is the magic wand that if you wave it new jobs will just spring up all across the valley of fantasy land. Well I'm sorry but that little fable may sound good to your capitalist croonies but anyone with half of a brain for business can see it for what it is . Sheer greed and profiteering, and taking advantage of the least fortunate citizens by paying them a pittance compaired to what you'd make off of their backs and sweat.

Luckily we can tell that I'm right and you're wrong because the United States as a whole agrees with me.
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Mar 17 2015 03:42pm
Quote (Valhalls_Sun @ Mar 17 2015 04:23pm)
We are arguing from across the great divide it appears you will grasp the silly notion that a human being is a product and the best business model squeezes the most work for the least pay out of the work force. You want to run free with no protections in place for the working man. Where I would have laws that would keep him safe. Call me a bleeding heart. I believe that the way to stimulate the economy and to produce more jobs is to infuse the economy with more money by paying the hard working people of America a honest wage not the lowest you can possibly get away with. You seem to think that lower wages is the magic wand that if you wave it new jobs will just spring up all across the valley of fantasy land. Well I'm sorry but that little fable may sound good to your capitalist croonies but anyone with half of a brain for business can see it for what it is . Sheer greed and profiteering, and taking advantage of the least fortunate citizens by paying them a pittance compaired to what you'd make off of their backs and sweat.

Luckily we can tell that I'm right and you're wrong because the United States as a whole agrees with me.


Why is a mandatory minimum wage that is lower than the poverty wage intellectually defensible under your logic?

Lower wages isn't some magic wand, the ABILITY to pay lower wages means that currently unemployable youths and minorities and poor people of little-to-no skill become competitive in the labor market, and get A job rather than NO job. They use this new found job to develop skills and experience so that they can build upon their employ-ability, leading to career growth. You are cutting out the basic first step for the least advantaged, allowing them to fall further behind.

@ bold: the very argumentum ad populum listed above being used anew. Your argument (and lack thereof) is predictable.

This post was edited by Santara on Mar 17 2015 03:43pm
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Mar 17 2015 04:58pm
Quote (Santara @ 17 Mar 2015 16:42)
Quote
Why is a mandatory minimum wage that is lower than the poverty wage intellectually defensible under your logic?

sigh.. because without the mandatory minimum wage law every fastfood place, every place, that currently pays the minimum wage only because they are forced to. Will if the mandatory minimum wage laws were eliminated those wages would be dropped down to a very low number. It's a sellers market the employers can put the pricetag on the jobs there are way more people looking for employment than there are jobs. Not having a protective floor for wages would be a disaster for those living in the low class and the poverty level.

Quote

Lower wages isn't some magic wand, the ABILITY to pay lower wages means that currently unemployable youths and minorities and poor people of little-to-no skill become competitive in the labor market, and get A job rather than NO job. They use this new found job to develop skills and experience so that they can build upon their employ-ability, leading to career growth. You are cutting out the basic first step for the least advantaged, allowing them to fall further behind.

Let me break this down.
you have a work force that are employed at unskilled labor jobs fast food, movie theaters, etc..=A,
you have the unemployed youths and minorities and poor people of little-to-no skill that aren't working = B
you have jobs that are now being done by group A. this number is static due to the economy We aren't growing jobs in manufacturing in fact those are leaving and service jobs are flat.
so when employers get the chance to lower wages they will lower the wages they are currently paying group A, so the wages will be equal as far as competition goes Group A will still be the desirable hires. Because of their experience and prior training. They won't have any bargaining space for wages as there are people waiting behind them willing to work at the offered price.

There still is no stimulus for new jobs. Cheap wages don't create new jobs, it may look good on paper. But in a real life situation with a stagnate economy that, isn't the way to create jobs. New money infused into the economy is how, there has to be demand before you can justify supplying the jobs for it. That's just real life

@ bold: the very argumentum ad populum listed above being used anew. Your argument (and lack thereof) is predictable.



@ my own bold I was just being a smart ass argumentum Assholeulum :D
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Mar 17 2015 05:13pm
Quote (RiskOfFire @ Mar 17 2015 11:42am)
And then there is reality...
Raising the minimum wage increases the amount of money that the lower and lower middle to middle class have. If the minimum wage increases to $15 an hour anyone making up to $30 an hour is likely going to see a near immediate raise.

What will actually happen to the economy is that there will be tens of millions of people with hundreds of millions and billions of dollars to spend. That is called demand. What are businesses and corporations going to need to do to get that money back? Hire tons of people to produce goods and services to sell to meet this new demand. Of course, the wealthiest will suffer because they will have less wealth as more of it will be in the hands of the lower classes.
Although the economic expansion would make the whole world wealthier eventually, evil disgusting scumbags like camponizi don't care about anything whatsoever beyond immediate profit margins because free market capitalists are deeply and internally flawed and evil, no different from islamist extremists, nazis, any group that's brainwashed themselves into abandoning logic, reason, and morality.


It's a lot more complicated than that.

Raising the minimum wage increases the cost of hiring unskilled labor.

Companies can respond by switching to higher skilled labor to compensate. This is in part what you're trying to say by implying higher wage earners also win. That's to this extent true, but at the direct expense of low income workers.

Companies can also respond by reducing their demand for labor. The decrease in labor consumption represents rent lost to the economy. This is offset in part by the increase in wages among those employed, but demand isn't necessarily created (in net, remember that artificial floors create inefficiency loss), it's just some very roundabout redistribution.

Companies can then either raise prices or take a loss on profit, likely a mixture of both. A fall in profit reduces the firm's competitiveness, with profit below normal profit low wage firms will struggle to attract investment and weaker players may leave the market. This will balance out over time as the remaining players consolidate and raise prices.

Consider also that the customers paying for the price hikes are mostly poor, middle, and working class. Walmart doesn't cater to the rich, neither do fast food joints. Minimum wage increases are thereby a tax on the lower and middle class for a small segment of the lower middle class.

When you add in that a large contingent of minimum wage workers are not actually from impoverished households (most are not primary income earners) raising the minimum wage starts to look like a fringe issue that tries to achieve a pretty modest gain in a very inefficient way.
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Mar 17 2015 05:16pm
Quote (Valhalls_Sun @ Mar 17 2015 05:58pm)
sigh.. because without the mandatory minimum wage law every fastfood place, every place, that currently pays the minimum wage only because they are forced to. Will if the mandatory minimum wage laws were eliminated those wages would be dropped down to a very low number. It's a sellers market the employers can put the pricetag on the jobs there are way more people looking for employment than there are jobs. Not having a protective floor for wages would be a disaster for those living in the low class and the poverty level.


You misunderstand me. The legal minimum wage is BELOW the poverty level right now. If setting minimum wages is about fairness to workers, why are they always set BELOW the poverty line? If Joe McDonald's deserves an "honest day's wage for an honest day's labor," why can I not consider his wage dishonest? How is it defensible intellectually to keep him in poverty if your argument for a minimum wage were really about getting a person his due? So when I ask:

Quote
Why is a mandatory minimum wage that is lower than the poverty wage intellectually defensible under your logic?


...I want to know why you allow people to be kept in poverty. Until very recently (the $15/hr push), there has never been any attempt to use the minimum wage to pull people out of poverty. The simple fact of the matter is that Democrats aren't interested in lifting people out of poverty, they're interested in keeping themselves relevant by providing just enough of the public's money to the people that need them to steal it for them.
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