that's the only part I disagree with.

@VH you continue to misunderstand what supply and demand is, and hows its effected by additional cost mandates and price controls.
There is infact a different demand for labor at different prices. If you raise the minimum wage you will see the demand for low-skill labor fall, disproportionately harming the unskilled and inexperienced, many of which are disproportionately minorities.
A $15 minimum wage or god-forbid a $22 one that Elizabeth Warren was pushing would be very harmful to their job prospects.
Do you still think black people who oppose outlawing jobs for some poor black people are race traitors?

Your implication that opening new businesses or expanding them "lowers" or worsens the economy is patently false.
Nor would competing with other businesses be a bad thing.

Nor would wage rates crash like you think they would. Something simply being legally allowed to be sold at a certain price does not mean that will become the norm.
Right now around ~97% of people with jobs make more than minimum wage. Not because the law says so, but because there is a demand for that labor and employers have to pay them more to get them to work there. They are productive and the product of their work is worth something to other people.

You are choking the demand for labor and then complaining to my side that theres not enough of it as an excuse to raise price floors even more.



Great hardships and oppression only count if you deem them racist?
Not all people of a race have to face a hardship for it to be a hardship either.

And since they weren't purely racist events, should people continue to act like "damn fools" when dealing with black people?

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Mar 17 2015 02:35am

I understand supply and demand and I again state that the rules of supply and demand stop when you hit an oversaturated market and that is where we are at now as is. There are more workers than jobs. I have never said that I think a dramatic raise in the minimum wage would be a great thing. I think a cost of living increase would be good but should be done in a incremental way.
I think Black people who propose abolishing the minimum wage a traitor to all of the low income people no matter what class, the same as any race person who supports such measure the only accomplishment they will achieve with abolishing the minimum wage is to widen the already grossly wide gap between the working class and the upper class.



You are mis-quoting the nature of what I was saying I'm not sure if that's your agenda or if you misunderstood what I meant I was sayg that doing those things while only paying a deflated wage.
unless you can invent and market new items, you will be just creating more items that are already flooding the market Cam. For the last decade at least we've had a oversaturated market for the most part, the only place where we've really seen new job growth is in the service market and it too has become glutted with employees looking for work. sure you can open a new business but the only thing you will do at this point is cannibalize other business and replace better paid employees with lower paid ones thus lowering the economy.


We talked about this , The jobs are filled because they are skilled trades, and professional jobs. The demand for unskilled labor just isn't that great. The fact that 97% of the workforce makes over the minimum wage would make lowering or dropping it seem pointless. Why abuse that 3% and allow their employers to exploit them?



You are choking the demand for labor and then complaining to my side that theres not enough of it as an excuse to raise price floors even more.[/QUOTE]


I have not spoken about raising price floors I've just been, for, protecting the minimum that can be paid by a company that meets the right criteria

This post was edited by Valhalls_Sun on Mar 17 2015 04:17am

You don't, you really don't. Stop saying you understand it.
You keep saying there are too few jobs for the unskilled as if that justifies the minimum wage. There is LESS demand for low skill work when there is a higher price floor.
I have explained over and over how a minimum wage negatively effects people who have a harder time finding a job. Some of the least well off and least preferred people will be doomed to unemployment. That includes a disproportionate amount of young/black people.

Saying the demand for unskilled labor right now 'isn't that great' should bring you to the opposite conclusion of what we should do..

A price floor is the minimum..



There is value to consumers in providing more of a product or service, even if that product or service is already invented.
More room for businesses to operate would encourage more innovation and competition which will provide better/cheaper things to consumers too.

The last sentence remains completely ridiculous. Competing with other businesses doesn't harm the economy, nor is killing other businesses the only option..

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Mar 17 2015 05:05am

No sir what you seem to not understand is first labor is not a product it does not behave the same as a material good will when you consider supply and demand for some reason you want us to believe that if the floor is removed for the minimum wage that new jobs will be made, but there is no motivation for that feat. In fact the motivation for the opposite will happen and I'll explain why.

If you look at the job pool the jobs that demand employees with no skills, it is static, there haven't been any big boons that have increased employment figures to a great extent in quite a long time. Those that are working are making at least the minimum wage. that gives the group a certain purchasing power they are consumers.

Now if you were to succeed and get the minimum wage eliminated. What is going to be affected? you will deteriorate the income of the unskilled workers, you will remove demand for product and slow the economy and make the desire for new industry disappear even if it would offer cheaper labor costs it's competitors would already be paying those exact same low wages. When you have a new business start up that sells exactly or nearly the same product as is already on the market, then it isn't adding jobs, it's just re-distributing them.

Business competition is fine on paper but when they both just offer the bare minimum wages. What seems like a stimulated economy and an active market is nothing more than the unskilled laborers lives being tossed up in the air, and hopefully landing in fertile soil once again.



Ok I'm sick of this apologist hookum bookum for capitalist corporate uninhibited growth hidden behind the more honest appeal of the societal aspects of the Libertarian

If Business owners were to pay a minimum wage set forth by Congress one that fairly raises incrementally with the cost of living they could actually infuse some capital back into the economy. Rather than taking the one tool that can directly affect the market, and our economy away, by removing any wages that could possibly be left in a man's pocket after payday. Maybe in Haiti or some other 3rd. world country there are people that would be happy with $2-$4 per hour but that's really just insulting to anyone to suggest that that's all their time is worth. You say I'm racist for wanting to keep the minimum wage because it will keep some poor black teens from working. But I say you are worse thinking that you can get away with filling a factory with them at a couple bucks an hour.

This post was edited by Valhalls_Sun on Mar 17 2015 08:52am

You don't think supply and demand apply and ignore how business and profit work, and you ignore the deleterious effects on the unskilled, because you don't like how it makes you feel, you feel they should make more, and you don't like libertarians, employers, or capitalists.
Great. Thanks for sharing.
Your feelings don't offset economic realities.

Unskilled inexperienced workers are not necessarily worth a ton in real terms.
Not because I am personally undervaluing them and a 'bad guy" but because the truth of the matter is that they haven't developed the skills to be very productive yet.
Who is going to hire someone if its a losing economic proposition?
A high wage floor bars them from entering the labor force.

You thinking people are evil if they offer black people a low wage that they would willingly accept to improve their lives, and banning them from accepting it, isn't helping them become employed and it certainly isn't helping them get the experience and skills they need to work their way up to better their lot in life.
Who are you to interfere in their affairs and prevent them from making a living? And then you have the temerity to pretend you are looking out for them and call anyone who doesn't like it a race traitor. Disgusting.

Nor is every low paying job on earth designed to provide for a family of four.
Perhaps they are flipping burgers, or someone just wants a little something extra to help out, or to buy a few nicer things for themselves. Or perhaps they want a very low-intensity job and a high wage isn't their top priority.

Next on the agenda: How does valhalls feel about tacos? Are they racist and evil? A capitalist ploy to give Mexicans heart attacks? Or just a tasty meal?

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Mar 17 2015 09:11am

And then there is reality...
Raising the minimum wage increases the amount of money that the lower and lower middle to middle class have. If the minimum wage increases to $15 an hour anyone making up to $30 an hour is likely going to see a near immediate raise.

What will actually happen to the economy is that there will be tens of millions of people with hundreds of millions and billions of dollars to spend. That is called demand. What are businesses and corporations going to need to do to get that money back? Hire tons of people to produce goods and services to sell to meet this new demand. Of course, the wealthiest will suffer because they will have less wealth as more of it will be in the hands of the lower classes.
Although the economic expansion would make the whole world wealthier eventually, evil disgusting scumbags like camponizi don't care about anything whatsoever beyond immediate profit margins because free market capitalists are deeply and internally flawed and evil, no different from islamist extremists, nazis, any group that's brainwashed themselves into abandoning logic, reason, and morality.

IMO nothing. a major increase in the amount of liquid cash, especially going to people that have never had it, will just increase prices. If everyone who used to make 7.25$ makes 15$ do you think milk will stay the same price? gas? sure there will be things that cant raise their prices as much like utilities etc, but good will skyrocket if minimum wage double. Raising it slowly would perhaps bypass some of the inflation but if we double the wages of millions of people they will not have much more money adjusted for inflation.

15 might be high, but the effects he's describing would definitely happen if there was a gradual rise to twelve

I think prices for items will rise but more on a natural incline like the increase in the minimum wage like I suggested, You can't just double it overnight that would be grossly unfair to the business owners, but a rise in increments that brings it up to the values that Congress decides on and then maintain some sort of maintenance increase. That will increase consumers and it will directly affect the entry level jobs. The fast food industry, Retailers.etc..
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I like Burritos better and I have some Mexican amigos so watch yourself jefe

This post was edited by Valhalls_Sun on Mar 17 2015 12:43pm