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May 17 2010 11:58am
Quote (eGc-CrusadeR @ May 17 2010 08:09am)
Thats correct, i call them Fyrom, its the official name after all and it will be untill United Nations take a new desicion but untill then i call them fyrom

Fyrom didnt even exist during the 40's and 50's, if they claim themselves the name of Macedonia where were they during the World War 2 ?  simply enough, we fough for our freedom, for our land and they didnt even exist, the only thing that they can claim is their only existance, nothin more.


I can understand that, but I wasn't trying to explain this from a Greek or Slavic point of view, I was trying to get across who each group was without causing undue confusion.

Slavic Macedonians refer to Aegean Macedonians as their Slavic brothers from Aegean (Greek) Macedonia.

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May 17 2010 12:11pm
Quote (catkaboodle @ May 17 2010 03:38pm)
Okay, everyone. CALM DOWN.

Macedonia (the province) is indeed a part of Greece. And now that there are a bunch of Greeks living there, there's really no reason for it to be separate from Greece. What AiNedeSpelCzech and I don't like is that the Slavic-speaking population there isn't allowed to keep its' cultural traditions or even name its' kids in its own language!

Yes, there is a state of Slavs to the north called Macedonia. And yes, they identify as Macedonians. It's like how the English refer to themselves as the British even though they aren't Pictish. This practice of naming has been going on for centuries. Whether or not it's a legitimate form of naming is up to the person.


Creating a cultural hegemony is by no means a bad thing. Greece has been without a unitary state for most of its history, one can hardly blame them if they take measures to ensure they remain so now.
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May 17 2010 01:26pm
Quote (AiNedeSpelCzech @ May 17 2010 04:20pm)
Right, it was formerly Yugoslavian.  Now it's just the Republic of Macedonia - or at least it will be, once Greece stops bullying them.


i know what u should do....go the the 10th floor of a building near u...go out in the balcony...and then jump!!
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May 17 2010 01:57pm
Quote (Sparda13 @ May 17 2010 07:26pm)
i know what u should do....go the the 10th floor of a building near u...go out in the balcony...and then jump!!


Okay, I did what you said. I jumped while standing on the balcony. Now what?
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May 17 2010 01:59pm
Quote (Sparda13 @ 17 May 2010 14:26)
i know what u should do....go the the 10th floor of a building near u...go out in the balcony...and then jump!!


I know what you should do. Stop trying to bully other nations out of the right to name themselves.
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May 17 2010 02:22pm
Quote (AiNedeSpelCzech @ May 17 2010 07:59pm)
I know what you should do.  Stop trying to bully other nations out of the right to name themselves.


It's everyone's right to have an identity as a nation but noone has the right to steal that kind of identity form other nations.

P.S. Noone is bullying other nations. It's all about history and nothing more ^^
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May 17 2010 02:24pm
Quote (3m3Rg3 @ May 17 2010 08:22pm)
It's everyone's right to have an identity as a nation but noone has the right to steal that kind of identity form other nations.

P.S. Noone is bullying other nations. It's all about history and nothing more ^^


There isn't any "stealing" going on :/, the FYROM renaming itself should have no effect on Greece.
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May 17 2010 04:09pm
Quote (bogie160 @ May 17 2010 01:11pm)
Creating a cultural hegemony is by no means a bad thing. Greece has been without a unitary state for most of its history, one can hardly blame them if they take measures to ensure they remain so now.


This is where the big philosophical divide between us is, I guess.

I believe that everyone should have the right to their own way of life as long as it doesn't hurt other people. I also believe that nations of people have the right to their own state if they desire it.

Therefore, I am glad that a Republic of Macedonia exists for the Slavophone Macedonians to go live in. That satisfies their need for a nation-state of their own.

However, in the Mediterranean, the land that's been in your family for centuries is really important. A lot of people are reluctant to give that up, and so I'm not surprised that there are still Aegean Macedonians living in Greece. These Macedonians should have the right to, y'know, be Macedonian. Instead, the Greek government is making them conform to arbitrary cultural standards, even though they don't represent a threat to Greek hegemony any longer.
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May 17 2010 04:35pm
Quote (catkaboodle @ May 17 2010 10:09pm)
This is where the big philosophical divide between us is, I guess.

I believe that everyone should have the right to their own way of life as long as it doesn't hurt other people. I also believe that nations of people have the right to their own state if they desire it.

Therefore, I am glad that a Republic of Macedonia exists for the Slavophone Macedonians to go live in. That satisfies their need for a nation-state of their own.

However, in the Mediterranean, the land that's been in your family for centuries is really important. A lot of people are reluctant to give that up, and so I'm not surprised that there are still Aegean Macedonians living in Greece. These Macedonians should have the right to, y'know, be Macedonian. Instead, the Greek government is making them conform to arbitrary cultural standards, even though they don't represent a threat to Greek hegemony any longer.


What if my way of life conflicts with that of another? What if your "belief" contradicts the sovereign will of other nations? Of what relevance is your statement "have the right to their own state..." when the Slavic people of that area already had states in existence representing their ethnicity? It was not until recently that these individuals began calling themselves Macedonian, what differentiates them from Bulgarians or other Slavic ethncities?

Why do they have a right to be "Macedonian", and what does that entail? They are upsetting the cultural hegemony of the Greek state, what else could they possibly expect?
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May 17 2010 08:21pm
Quote (bogie160 @ May 17 2010 05:35pm)
What if my way of life conflicts with that of another? What if your "belief" contradicts the sovereign will of other nations? Of what relevance is your statement "have the right to their own state..." when the Slavic people of that area already had states in existence representing their ethnicity? It was not until recently that these individuals began calling themselves Macedonian, what differentiates them from Bulgarians or other Slavic ethncities?

Why do they have a right to be "Macedonian", and what does that entail? They are upsetting the cultural hegemony of the Greek state, what else could they possibly expect?


Question #1) Unless these conflicts hurt people, then they can be resolved. In America we have all sorts of ways of life living next to and interacting with each other, and I'd say we're a pretty successful nation, even though things don't run as seamlessly as we would like sometimes.

#2) If either of my beliefs contradicts the sovereign will of other nations, then those other nations are wrong. :P

In all seriousness, this may sound kinda dumb, but if other nations don't act by these beliefs, then they're probably hurting people by taking away their rights to their culture and homeland.

3)The two statements go together. People need to be able to practice their own culture, and they need a place to do it without getting persecuted. Usually, this requires establishing a nation-state for these people. (However, they can also move to a pluralistic state and practice their cultures there without too much trouble.)

4)From what I've been able to tell, they actually seem to have been calling themselves Macedonian for a great deal longer than you think. This -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic-speakers_of_Greek_Macedonia<-- is quite an interesting article. In fact, going back to my previous example, it's just like the English calling themselves British. Nomadic tribe moves into an area and starts calling themselves by the area's name, rather than their own. You could say they are the Macedonian group of whatever Slavic tribe they branched off of.

5) I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this question, and I'm not so sure I want to take a shot at answering it knowing that. Could you explain please?

6 will take an essay, so I'll save it for another post. XD



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