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Nov 25 2019 08:46am
Quote (IceMage @ 25 Nov 2019 15:30)
I've been thinking lately... people have been speculating that Trump could refuse to leave office if he loses in 2020. I've thought this concern is loony.

But regarding this Ukraine thing... basically the entire Republican party is living in a post-fact fantasy land. They're pretending it wasn't bad at all.

So if the election in 2020 is very close, say it comes down to one state, and the Democratic candidate is deemed the winner. I think it's actually possible Trump refuses to accept the results, therefore Fox News and his voters refuse to accept the results, therefore the vast majority of Republicans refuse to accept the results. We could get in a situation where the president and the Republican party are calling for an unnecessary recount, or perhaps even another election.

This cult of personality is so strong that I think it's possible. Not likely in any way, but possible.


Yes, the tension in between your parties is increasing since decades, statistics made on votes in both chambers show it (ref: french political expert interview ~3 weeks ago)
A a war, major recession with riots, cyber-attack, ballots hacking.... Could lead to some kind of permanent "state of emergency".
People guns would be useless btw, only leading to domestic massacres in-between civilians. Your post is realist IMO, the risk is small but still too big...
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Nov 25 2019 09:03am
Quote (IceMage @ Nov 25 2019 08:30am)
I've been thinking lately... people have been speculating that Trump could refuse to leave office if he loses in 2020. I've thought this concern is loony.

But regarding this Ukraine thing... basically the entire Republican party is living in a post-fact fantasy land. They're pretending it wasn't bad at all.

So if the election in 2020 is very close, say it comes down to one state, and the Democratic candidate is deemed the winner. I think it's actually possible Trump refuses to accept the results, therefore Fox News and his voters refuse to accept the results, therefore the vast majority of Republicans refuse to accept the results. We could get in a situation where the president and the Republican party are calling for an unnecessary recount, or perhaps even another election.

This cult of personality is so strong that I think it's possible. Not likely in any way, but possible.

Yeah, we wouldn’t want a situation where one party doesn’t accept the results of an election. That would be bad for the country, & the never-Trump-humpers have been doing it for 3 years.
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Nov 25 2019 09:05am
Quote (IgoSoHard @ Nov 25 2019 10:03am)
Yeah, we wouldn’t want a situation where one party doesn’t accept the results of an election. That would be bad for the country, & the never-Trump-humpers have been doing it for 3 years.


The opposition party fervently opposing the president is not "denying the results of an election". Hillary Clinton conceded in a timely manner.
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Nov 25 2019 09:21am
Quote (IceMage @ 25 Nov 2019 16:05)
The opposition party fervently opposing the president is not "denying the results of an election". Hillary Clinton conceded in a timely manner.


There is a huge difference between "opposing" a president and "trying to undermine his legitimacy based on hoaxes, ridiculous conspiracy theories and intelligence reports from partisan and unreliable sources".

There is a difference between trying to oppose a president's policy by convincing the public with substantive, rational arguments and trying to stymie his agenda with smear campaigns and unfounded hysteria.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Nov 25 2019 09:44am
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Nov 25 2019 09:27am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Nov 25 2019 10:21am)
There is a huge difference between "opposing" a president and "trying to undermine his legitimacy based on hoaxes, ridiculous conspiracy theories and intelligence reports from partisan and unreliable sources".

There is a difference between trying to oppose a president's policy by convincing the public with substantative, rational arguments and trying to stymie his agenda with smear campaigns and unfounded hysteria.


Not much of a difference, especially when Trump gave people a multitude of reasons to believe he might be compromised in some way by Russia. The Democrats didn't ask Don Jr. to try to conspire with the Russians. They didn't ask Trump to employ Russian-connected individuals like Carter Page and Paul Manafort. They didn't ask Trump to pursue a lucrative real estate deal in Moscow during the campaign. That's all on him.
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Nov 25 2019 09:37am
Quote (IceMage @ Nov 25 2019 09:05am)
The opposition party fervently opposing the president is not "denying the results of an election". Hillary Clinton conceded in a timely manner.

They [& you] pushed a narrative for the better part of 3 years that Trump only won because he colluded with a hostile foreign nation, & if he didn’t collude, Hillary would have won. You yourself went on record & put the odds at “80%” that Trump & Co colluded with Russia to affect the 2016 election. You didn’t accept the results because you thought the result were not legitimate. Which of course was proven false.
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Nov 25 2019 09:38am
Quote (IceMage @ 25 Nov 2019 10:05)
The opposition party fervently opposing the president is not "denying the results of an election". Hillary Clinton conceded in a timely manner.

Giving a speech the next day is not timely. After everyone called the result, Podesta went on stage at like 2 am election night and told everyone to come back later

President Obama then called to yell at Hillary for not campaigning correctly and told her to put the wine down and call the President-elect so she could concede, which she after Obama had to call Posesta to tell her to concede, which she finally did like a good former low-level employee. Maybe you were too busy crying to pay attention

That said, you and many millions of privileged lefties have been denying the election by saying russia or ukraine or the tooth fairy hacked the election and the power grid in vermont etc.
Quote (IgoSoHard @ 25 Nov 2019 10:03)
Yeah, we wouldn’t want a situation where one party doesn’t accept the results of an election. That would be bad for the country, & the never-Trump-humpers have been doing it for 3 years.

the country has been doing quite well despite the election and math-denying by privileged lefties

stock market highs/record employment/record-low unemployment across all spectrums and bi-partisan criminal justice reform

just imagine if lecherous, avaricious anti-trumpers like icepeon actually did something for a living other than complain about math being too difficult. lol that’ll never happen

This post was edited by excellence on Nov 25 2019 09:41am
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Nov 25 2019 10:00am
Quote (IgoSoHard @ Nov 25 2019 10:37am)
They [& you] pushed a narrative for the better part of 3 years that Trump only won because he colluded with a hostile foreign nation, & if he didn’t collude, Hillary would have won. You yourself went on record & put the odds at “80%” that Trump & Co colluded with Russia to affect the 2016 election. You didn’t accept the results because you thought the result were not legitimate. Which of course was proven false.


The bold is the only thing that's true in there. And throughout Russiagate my views on whether the campaign colluded were mixed. I expressed skepticism time and time again.

This post was edited by IceMage on Nov 25 2019 10:00am
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Nov 25 2019 10:12am
Quote (IceMage @ 25 Nov 2019 17:00)
The bold is the only thing that's true in there. And throughout Russiagate my views on whether the campaign colluded were mixed.


What about the other part of my rebuttal? What about the constant attempts at stymieing the agenda of a democratically elected president - not by substantive arguments, but by a steady stream of smears and hysteria?

Kavanaugh is the leader of a grooming gang. Look at this picture of sad kids in cages that the cruel Trump separated from their parents (oops, those pics were taken in 2014 under Obama's presidency). Trump's election will crash the stock markets and the economy. Trump is saber-rattling too much with North Korea, he's playing with fire. No wait, he's far too lenient and cozy with Kim. He's giving Ukraine the javelin missiles that help them hold their ground against Russian aggression, missiles that Obama denied them - but he's still far far too soft on Russia. He's making up a border crisis out of thin air. Oh wait, now we really have a crisis on the border, but we will never ever admit that he was right all along.

And so on and on. The Democrats and their allies in the media have been flinging shit in Trump's direction nonstop. And the saddest thing about it is how unnecessary this dirty campaigning against him actually is. Trump is perhaps the most erratic president in recent memory, he's constantly tripping over his own feet, constantly suffering from self-inflicted wounds. He's providing his political opponents with a huge pile of actions and decisions which are really deserving of criticism. There is absolutely no need to make up even more shit against him.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Nov 25 2019 10:13am
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Nov 25 2019 10:44am
Are Democrats Demonically Possessed?

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/to-trumps-evangelicals-everyone-else-is-a-sinner/602569/

This follows Perry and some others who processed the "trump is chosen by god" rhetoric.

This is a dangerous path [be smart?]. I guess the best defense against this madness is a cool socialist purge :lol:

nb:

"
It’s true that the unemployment rate is the lowest it’s been in a half-century, and the stock market is at a record high. That’s all to the good. At the same time, economic growth under Trump has been so-so. The Gross Domestic Product—which under Trump has will not reach even 3.0 percent during his first three years in office—is decelerating. The deficit has and debt have exploded. The manufacturing industry is in recession. And job growth during the last 33 months of the Obama presidency was higher than it’s been during the first 33 months of the Trump presidency. A fair-minded comparison of Obama and Trump’s economic records can be found here.
"

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