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#1511
Feb 27 2024 08:55pm
Quote (gnarjay @ 27 Feb 2024 19:46)
I didnt indicate that, thats actually what the Alabama Supreme Court opened up with its ruling last week. doctors and facilities are acting preemptively which they absolutely should unless they want to lose millions of dollars and/or face serious jail time, possibly life in prison

so you think cases like this one

https://www.lieffcabraser.com/2024/02/couple-whose-embryos-were-destroyed-by-defective-ivf-product-seek-justice-against-manufacturer-coopersurgical/

should be tried criminally even though it was entirely accidental? think about the implications. Im all for holding corporations and doctors accountable , especially if they have a history of safety lapses, but it is certifiably insane to think charging doctors with manslaughter or worse over IVF accidents is any form of 'justice'. its insane christo-fascism


As to the first part, I understand why doctors and facilities are acting preemptively. That part is not a mystery, according to doctors, only non-doctors should be liable for their products and services, doctors should be treated special. I disagree with their stance in most cases, though in some cases, I will agree. Grudgingly.

As to the article, that appears to be a civil case. That's not a criminal prosecution. And it appears to be a valid case. Customers paid for a thing, and due to a defective product, their money was wasted. They should be entitled to a full refund, along with any additional damages a court determines within reason.

I've never signalled agreement or disagreement with the idea of an embryo being treated as a human. Haven't really given it much thought. I'm merely on the side of standard consumer protection laws. If a person is paying for their embryos to be stored, first the intitial procedure itself is expensive as fuck, then they have to pay "rent" for the continued storage, and there are time limits. So for a person to show up wanting to use the thing they've paid to have done and continued to pay for the storage of and have it not there? That's very close to criminal fraud.

Not going to engage on manslaughter stuff, as I don't really have an opinion there yet. I'll give it some thought, get back to you.

This post was edited by InsaneBobb on Feb 27 2024 08:57pm
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#1512
Feb 27 2024 09:02pm
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Feb 27 2024 06:55pm)
As to the first part, I understand why doctors and facilities are acting preemptively. That part is not a mystery, according to doctors, only non-doctors shouldn't be liable for their products and services, doctors should be treated special. I disagree with their stance in most cases, though in some cases, I will agree. Grudgingly.

As to the article, that appears to be a civil case. That's not a criminal prosecution. And it appears to be a valid case. Customers paid for a thing, and due to a defective product, their money was wasted. They should be entitled to a full refund, along with any additional damages a court determines within reason.

I've never signalled agreement or disagreement with the idea of an embryo being treated as a human. Haven't really given it much thought. I'm merely on the side of standard consumer protection laws. If a person is paying for their embryos to be stored, first the intitial procedure itself is expensive as fuck, then they have to pay "rent" for the continued storage, and there are time limits. So for a person to show up wanting to use the thing they've paid to have done and continued to pay for the storage of and have it not there? That's very close to criminal fraud.

Not going to engage on manslaughter stuff, as I don't really have an opinion there yet. I'll give it some thought, get back to you.


that case was civil and I agree 100% with your stance on it. my point was while this specific case was in California, if it were to happen tomorrow in Alabama, the doctors/facility members could face lifetime+ prison charges for the embryos being considered "people". that point specifically is what most people have an issue with

it'll be very interesting to see how this plays out especially so close to an election. Ive worked with a conservative man for 12+ years that has two kids via IVF, to think people like him might not have IVF as an option in the future is a sign of the dark times we're living in. we're regressing massively as a country
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#1513
Feb 28 2024 12:27am
Quote (gnarjay @ 27 Feb 2024 20:02)
that case was civil and I agree 100% with your stance on it. my point was while this specific case was in California, if it were to happen tomorrow in Alabama, the doctors/facility members could face lifetime+ prison charges for the embryos being considered "people". that point specifically is what most people have an issue with

it'll be very interesting to see how this plays out especially so close to an election. Ive worked with a conservative man for 12+ years that has two kids via IVF, to think people like him might not have IVF as an option in the future is a sign of the dark times we're living in. we're regressing massively as a country


I've given it a base level thought, and you probably won't like my conclusion. When it comes to criminal prosecution, I believe it should be treated the same way abortion is treated. If day 1 abortion is treated as manslaughter, then that's what it should be, assuming intent.

Now, the problem as I see it, regarding the case of a defective product? There was no intent. They were sold on a lemon, the lemon seller is held by the same terms as any given producer. That's not a doctor issue, that's a manufactured goods issue. So my stance wouldn't change at all regarding the SF case.

I really can't give you more. I'm sorry, I'm viewing this from a States perspective, and trying to be objective. Hope that helps clarify. I can't even give an "ideal world" perspective, because I don't believe in test tube babies or IVF at all from a personal standpoint. That's not my thing. Wife can't have kids, I can. I told her flat out, "If I have children, they'll be created naturally." That was the end of the discussion. We're both fine with that result. I'm out of my depth in how to judge IVF cases.
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#1514
Feb 28 2024 02:41am
Remember when it was the first heart beat that decided if really a person?
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#1515
Feb 28 2024 03:35am
Quote (said_aouita @ 28 Feb 2024 01:41)
Remember when it was the first heart beat that decided if really a person?


Yes. It was the progressive left that decided that wasn't good enough. How has pushing it to a point where people had to actually decide what they believe worked for you?

You are losing states based on this issue. Forever. Marxism is finding out where it's enemies are, for sure. On the flipside, American Patriots are figuring out where the marxist scum are, and well, good luck.
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#1516
Feb 28 2024 04:01am
its not a states issue, its a personal issue. if you dont like abortions thats cool, dont get one. you dont want test tube babies? youre free to opt out. simple as

This post was edited by gnarjay on Feb 28 2024 04:01am
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#1517
Feb 28 2024 04:47am
Quote (gnarjay @ Feb 28 2024 03:01am)
its not a states issue, its a personal issue. if you dont like abortions thats cool, dont get one. you dont want test tube babies? youre free to opt out. simple as


Holy crap! I agree with you… mind blown 🤯
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#1518
Feb 28 2024 04:53am
Quote (gnarjay @ Feb 28 2024 02:01am)
its not a states issue, its a personal issue. if you dont like abortions thats cool, dont get one. you dont want test tube babies? youre free to opt out. simple as


your for medical autonomy??
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#1519
Feb 28 2024 06:03am
This post is a violation of the site rules and appropriate action was taken.

Quote (Crunkt @ Feb 27 2024 07:49pm)
remeber when you got 10% for a post that was crying at me for getting 10%?

better calm down there oinky oinky hoggy boy


Something something retarded scumbags.
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#1520
Feb 28 2024 12:43pm
Mitch McConnell makes planned departure as Senate Republican leader official in floor speech - Speaking on the Senate floor, Mitch McConnell just formally announced his plan to depart as the chamber’s top Republican in November. “This will be my last term as Republican leader. I’m not going anywhere, anytime soon. I’ll complete my job. My colleagues have given me until we select a new leader in November and they take the helm next January. I’ll finish the job that people Kentucky hired me to do as well – albeit from a different seat,” McConnell said.

He leaves behind a legacy of setting Republican against Democrat, husband against wife, father against son, neighbor against neighbor and can be considered one of the prime architects of wrecking US society.
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