What if the "ppl" want benefits of both being in the EU and out of the EU at the same time? I can actually vote for that

What do you do then?

completely unrestricted access to the single market without free movement is simply impossible, that has been crystal clear from the beginning (and also stated in brexit related threads over and over). the brits KNOW this, they knew this before the referendum, and the EU would sign its death sentence by agreeing to it. we HAVE to send a strong signal that leaving will cost you - and that has nothing to do with pettiness or revenge, but it's vital for the stability of the union - if everyone thinks they can just have the benefits without the responsibilities, the EU is finished.
for the longest time the UK insisted on special treatment within the EU - rebate, schengen, currency, and their refusal to collaborate on refugee solutions just to name a few - those days are over. they want to leave so they will have to pay a fair price, and their political leaders will have to have the balls to tell them that - the time to pretend those ridiculous campaign promises are realistically achievable is long gone, you can't possibly expect the rest of europe to pay for the incompetence and lies of the brexit minority.

obviously the EU bureaucrats aren't interested in a no-deal scenario, let alone in unreasonable retaliation or escalation, since the UK will be an important trade partner after leaving the EU, but we are clearly in a significantly better negotiating position (something the UK might as well get used to for when they start negotiating trade deals with the other economic giants like china, america, japan...) because we know how much more important our market is for them than the other way around, and how important it is for the international corporations currently still residing in the UK to be part of the much larger market.
i'm obviously still hoping for an intelligent solution (best case scenario is that both sides won't get hurt too much, there is no 'winning' for either side in this), but the ball is clearly in their court to come up with something acceptable, and you'd have to be delusional to expect their economy NOT to be taking the bigger blow in the end...



free market access without free movement. a non-member collecting EU tariffs (in reply to their latest customs union proposal). in short, any solution that gives them all the benefits of membership without the responsibilities.
that's one of the core principles and that understandably hasn't changed during the negotiations. you can't cry about being immediately rejected if all your proposals cross this line - they have to find a political majority for something that is at least anywhere close to acceptable, but they are still playing their political games because no one has the balls (and the votes) to tell the british people what's possible and what's not - they are still trying to act like there was a way to keep the promises made to win the referendum (border control, no membership fees, independent negotiations, legislation, and regulation - but still having free access to the market), when it's clearly not.




has nothing to do with 'wanting', it's a necessity. every single member would want a similar deal otherwise. the fact that so many people hate the EU (as do i in many regards btw) is irrelevant - they decided to leave because the negatives outweigh the positives, so they will have to deal with it. it's not the fault of the rest of the EU that their politicians lied to them and exaggerated the negatives while downplaying the positives, so political feasibility is exclusively their problem - it's not the EU's responsibility to account for the misinformation by sparing them consequences at the expense of its remaining members and its own stability.



what's the point in even starting this discussion with you? you reliably disappear when your talking points have been refuted. defending poo boys bigoted generalisations and right wing invasion / cultural war hysteria as reasonable again just proves that...

That's more or less what everybody who votes yes on Brexit want. The Brexit campaign didn't have realistic expectations from day one.

the defender of the wicked is at it again
calling a violent mob of scum a violent mob of scum=generalisation? this was a joint effort to storm the border

only in fender universe

what exactly do you think i'm 'defending', poo boy? in which post? quotes and concrete evidence please, not just common places.



yes, and this 'correctly' contains items the EU can't possibly agree to. how convenient that the rats promising those things have all abandoned the ship of political responsibility already...

You lads ship out a lot of mdma to be fair



Alright mate I'll play ball.

Countries should be able to trade freely with one another and not have to sign up to an open border policy with the rest of Europe. Each of the EU's principles are distinct from one another and there is no intelligible reason why the free movement of goods, services or capital should also be applied to labour. If an EU country wants to import an EU product without facing tariffs, they shouldn't be obliged to accept an unlimited number of Europeans through their borders.

While it's understandable that the EU doesn't want to renege on its own founding principles, they can't argue a position that free market access without free movement isn't feasible when it actually is. Their refusal to treat trade as a separate issue is not due to any logic or underlying reason other than that's what they agreed when it was founded, which is fundamentally flawed logic if there is a better alternative available.

The British public may disagree on many aspects of Brexit, but one of the issues that has the most support is an end to free movement.

This post was edited by dro94 on Jul 28 2018 12:42am

you don't have to understand it, you don't have to like it, you don't have to consider it necessary. all of that is irrelevant because those are the terms you have to agree to when you join the EU, it's a contract.
in what world do you seriously expect to terminate a contract and still get all the benefits without the negatives, just by arguing they aren't necessarily connected to each other?

the point is NOT that it's impossible to have free trade between nations without free movement in THEORY, the point is that it's impossible to grant that to a former member (or anyone for that matter, ask switzerland and norway for example) because each member state would want a deal that contains only the benefits for its economy without the responsibilities - and that would inevitably destroy the union. how is that so hard to understand? how can you claim you respect that principle while ignoring such obvious truths? special treatment is over, and this is not just about being fed up with the UK's arrogance and cherry picking, it's a question of vital importance to the EU.

seriously, brits seem to be in desperate need of a reality check, but their leaders are wasting time fighting over the colour of the dictionary the want to bring to the spelling bee...

It's not impossible to have frictionless trade with a former member without an open border policy. The EU could reform to give back border control to its member states while retaining close trade links tomorrow if they wanted. Still, the point about why we have free movement in the first place and how it's tied to free trade hasn't been addressed, and I'm not surprised considering it's indefensible.

16% of EU exports (not including the UK) go to the UK so it's perfectly rational for us to want and get special treatment. That's why the EU did it before and why it'll do it again.

This post was edited by dro94 on Jul 28 2018 02:09am

i can just explain it to you, i can't understand it for you. i don't know where that optimism and confidence comes from, but you clearly can't read the signals. your expectations and evaluations considering the leverage the UK has, and your understanding of how the EU works, are entirely unrealistic and fundamentally flawed.
that's why i stated you guys are in desperate need of a reality check. throwing temper tantrums and insisting that it's technically possible to have icecream without eating your vegetables first, won't help. sure you can, but not at this table - daddy told you from the beginning and he is putting his foot down this time.

The UK seems weak in these negotiations to me. Should simply hard Brexit and make trade deals with other nations if the EU doesn't want to play ball IMO.