Quote (fender @ Feb 12 2023 08:54pm)

i don't think that's true at all tbh. i don't have the impression the trans community as a whole is just completely opposed to justified, legitimate criticism, let alone commentary - quite the opposite: i think they WANT the general public to be aware of / talk about / normalise their existence.

could you name an example of reasonable criticism that trans people simply want to be "immune" against? maybe i'm missing something, but i genuinely can't think of one. the way i see it is that they are mainly opposed to broad generalisations based on fringe or completely made up incidents, or discriminatory legislation / the opposition to more inclusive legislation, based on purely hypothetical and fabricated fears.

are there trans activists and allies who are obnoxious, shrill, unreasonable, entitled, overly aggressive... especially in the eyes of those who never had to fight for basic human rights, and who simply don't care? of course, i don't think anyone would deny that. that doesn't mean they are representative of the group as a whole though.

it has always been like that btw - with the suffragette movement, the civil rights movement, native rights movements in virtually every colonised country... basically every time a minority fought for recognition and equality, you have those loud individuals - just like you always have people that oppose them on principle and those that act like they personally have nothing against said group, but they just can't support them because some of them are simply assholes...

Quote (Plaguefear @ 12 Feb 2023 11:12)

Name something you think is a "reasonable criticism".

Quote (fender @ Feb 12 2023 05:43am)

i literally told you i can't think of one, and asked YOU because you claimed they wanted immunity from it. i assumed to make such a broad claim, one would have at least some examples in mind.

i can tell what type of criticism i'd consider "reasonable" though, if that's what you're asking: criticism that is based of factual / statistical evidence, that can reasonably be applied to the group as a whole - and not just to some obnoxious individuals that are falsely portrayed as representative of the whole trans community. i mean criticism that fairly (applying common sense and a good faith approach to weighing conflicting interests against each other) describes current or potential problems and issues with trans right -and is not just fear- and hate-mongering, based on fringe or completely made up incidents.

Quote (excellence @ Feb 11 2023 10:42am)

Quote (Jupe @ 12 Feb 2023 12:43)

puberty blockers/hormone treatment being touted as 'safe' and 'reversible' for children
rate of detransistioners being disregarded/labelled transphobic
treatment of trans children who have coinciding mental illness
affirmative care issues
traditionally women-only zones issues
the hogwarts game fiasco (the article excellence posted is pretty hilarious)

Off the top of my head here. But maybe raising these issues and getting 'cancelled' on twitter (or fired from your job lol) isn't 'representative of the whole trans community' idk how to tackle that. I can tell you personally that some trans people I know have tried to convince other gay people I know that they are trans and the ensuing drama is great :rofl: but I doubt that's common.

Quote (fender @ Feb 12 2023 07:09am)

you're conflating different things there. what the medical community and psychologists generally consider the safest way to minimise suffering might not be accepted or agreed upon by everyone, but that doesn't make it a topic that trans people want a "blanket immunity" from discussing. we shouldn't confuse pushing back against deliberate misinformation, scaremongering, and ignorance surrounding this topic as simply trying to just silence any reasonable criticism or well-intentioned advice.

again, my claim is not that there aren't any current or potential issues regarding medical / psychological / social issues concerning trans people - i'm saying that i don't have the impression that good faith discussion and the search for reasonable solutions is discouraged or outright blocked by them - quite the opposite imo.

i don't mind people chiming in on this conversation between plague and i, but let's try to remember what exactly we're talking about:
this is specifically about his statements that "everyone must conform or else" - (he still hasn't explained what exactly everyone has to conform to, and what allegedly happens if they don't), and that "they want complete blanket immunity from all criticism and commentary" - which i simply do not think is true. in fact, my impression is that they actually welcome honest debate, and merely reject bad faith narratives aimed at discriminating against and smearing all trans people.

Quote (fender @ Feb 12 2023 08:09am)

you're conflating different things there. what the medical community and psychologists generally consider the safest way to minimise suffering might not be accepted or agreed upon by everyone, but that doesn't make it a topic that trans people want a "blanket immunity" from discussing. we shouldn't confuse pushing back against deliberate misinformation, scaremongering, and ignorance surrounding this topic as simply trying to just silence any reasonable criticism or well-intentioned advice.

again, my claim is not that there aren't any current or potential issues regarding medical / psychological / social issues concerning trans people - i'm saying that i don't have the impression that good faith discussion and the search for reasonable solutions is discouraged or outright blocked by them - quite the opposite imo.

i don't mind people chiming in on this conversation between plague and i, but let's try to remember what exactly we're talking about:
this is specifically about his statements that "everyone must conform or else" - (he still hasn't explained what exactly everyone has to conform to, and what allegedly happens if they don't), and that "they want complete blanket immunity from all criticism and commentary" - which i simply do not think is true. in fact, my impression is that they actually welcome honest debate, and merely reject bad faith narratives aimed at discriminating against and smearing all trans people.

Quote

There are definitely people who are trying to keep out anyone who doesn't absolutely buy the party line that everything should be affirming, and that there's no room for dissent

Quote (Jupe @ 12 Feb 2023 14:43)

So the question, "is there a bloc of the trans community that thinks everyone must conform or else?' Well, it would seem to me that a group of people harassing and attacking you unless you do what they say, is uh, exactly that? Another example right in my other post: a trans activist gaming journalist seething that a gaming company reviewed a game solely on the merits of 'is it a fun game to play?' instead of 'is it morally? a good game to play? What do you think this person means by that?

Each topic I mentioned has had attacks levied against it solely based on the ideas being transphobic as well... Dr Marci Bowers, a trans surgeon said and I quote:



The question you raised, what happens if you 'don't conform' is that you are labelled transphobic, a bigot, you discriminate against trans people, and youtubers are going to make videos about how you attended a convention for womens' rights that conservatives also attended, and how one of those conservatives is in a movement from america that is against abortion, and if you're seen with them you're now supporting an organization against abortion lmfao

Quote (fender @ Feb 12 2023 09:36am)

again, you're misrepresenting loud individuals as the whole community. that's dishonest and NOT what i (or plague for that matter) was talking about. in fact, i specifically addressed that in a previous post. feel free to read it:

https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=99114917&f=119&p=638042282

regarding the video: it's not like the creator didn't address your very predictable spin: he explains how those are not just random, superficial encounters, people rowling happened to meet at conventions regarding a completely unrelated topic, and had no idea what they REALLY stand and push for. i mean, she actively blocked people for merely pointing that out to her, while continuing to platform the bigots. had you actually watched the video with an open mind, you would also have noticed the part where he explains that some of the anti-trans movement specifically left that group because of its close ties with anti-gay and anti-abortion activists and organisations. it's not some far-fetched conspiracy or fabricated connection - it's at the very core of the whole movement.