Indeed. I'm SHOCKED at how weak Germany is acting here. Their weakness makes Biden look like fucking Patton in comparison. Germany already chose the correct side decades ago and they need to grow some balls and quit crying over their heaters. Their fucking grandparents/great-grandparents lived through some of the most difficult times and now they are complaining about not being able to turn the thermostat to 85 degrees Fahrenheit.

I agree that they don't care about collateral damage which is why it's best to punish them economically. It's difficult to control the corrupt oligarchy once the money dries up.

I think we don't actually disagree all that much in our conclusions, we're just making one different key assumption from which our entire dispute follows:


You believe that on an objective scale, the present-day Democrats are still a party which hovers somewhere between 'center-right' and 'right', and that this absolute-scale perspective is the one from which we should look at politics. Under this premise, Biden, by virtue of being the median Democrat, is still a centrist or center-right figure and the signfiicant leftward shift of the Democratic party over the past decade is meaningless because they were, in your perspective, coming from such a staunch conservative/right-wing starting point.

I believe that the present-day Democrats are a party which is coming from a place of moderation (10-20 years ago) and has been zooming to the left for quite some years. On an objective scale, I see them currently being staunch liberals who are starting to veer into lefty territory on economic policy and as far-left on social and cultural issues. And I believe that the more relevant perspective on American politics is to look at the ideological positioning of its politicians or parties relative to the country's ideological spectrum and political history, rather than some hypothetical objective scale. Relative to the ideological spectrum present in the United States, the 2021 version of Biden is a mainstream liberal pursuing liberal policies of ambitious scope, rather than an ideological moderate who's foolishly toning down the ambition of his legislation.





Side note: could you please stop this childish talk about "annihilating" or "curb stomping"? This is a place for an exchange of ideas and viewpoints, not the Blood Moor in a bm d2 pub. Don't you always claim to be this super smart, super successful scientist who's got a PhD and is in a leadership position in a fancy lab? Are you really still so pathetic that you have to artificially inflate your atrophied self-esteem by winning (or in some cases talking yourself into having won) debates with strangers on a video game forum? To quote Biden: come on, man!

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jan 28 2022 02:20pm

I won't stop until you start being somebody worth taking seriously. Even when you acknowledge I'm right on a subject you still repeat the same bullshit a month later as though the conversation never happened. This is literally that exact scenario. We've discussed this MULTIPLE times already. I already showed you how in the 90's Democrats were massively more liberal and wanted a public option, and how Democrats of the 2010's had gone so far right that they were trying to pass a watered down version of all the policies Republicans were pushing for in the 90's. Yet here you are. Repeating the same bullshit again. Asking me to "engage in an exchange of ideas" even though you never learn. You just put up the facade of learning to save face.

Want me to take you seriously? Stop being a fucking joke.


I can actively and respectfully engage with many people I disagree with when they are approaching the topic in good faith. In fact, I do it on the Discord all the time. You think I agree with thundercock on almost anything? Hell, I don't even agree with Sioux on most things But the difference is neither of them are going to have evidence presented and then a month later make a post totally disregarding it. So I can actually respect them.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Jan 28 2022 02:42pm

It was Jimmy Carter who accused Ronald Reagan of creating racial/gender based quotas for Supreme Court positions. It's now commonly accepted behavior in the Democratic party. Clinton's "Sister Souljah" moment makes him a right-wing extremist in the current political environment. Obama was a right-wing racist nicknamed "the deporter in chief".

The Democratic party is far, far to the left of where it was socially in the 1990s and 2000s. It's not close.

Socially in some ways but not in many meaningfully ways. Making a race a factor for the supreme court is hardly a big deal. Its to distract the middle of the road liberals with token gestures while not actually improving anything.

Oh he appoints a black woman? Cool. How about that police reform. Hey buddy, meaningful reform? No? Just a token gesture? K. Thanks I guess.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Jan 28 2022 02:55pm

One single policy item doesn't prove your larger point. Scholars generally agree that Democrats moved significantly to the right during the 90s on issues like crime, social spending, taxes, foreign policy and so on, and then hit an inflection point somewhere in the early 2000s when they started moving to the left again. The lack of ambition of Obamacare isn't the argumentative magic bullet you think it is; it doesn't undo all the countless other areas on which Democrats have moved significantly to the left over the past 10 years.

The bulk of the party now embraces truly reckless spending (don't tell me proposals for $5 trillion in a single year while inflation is already soaring isn't reckless). The bulk of the party embraces functionally open borders. They embrace racial and gender quotas. They embrace transgenderism. They now embrace fully socialized healthcare. They embrace censorship and cancel culture. (Whether conservatives were historically more guilty of cancel culture doesn't matter in this context.) They embrace CRT and adjacent ideology which argues that we should no longer aspire for a colorblind society and must instead be perpetually hyperfocused on race. They embraced looting and arson in the wake of the Floyd protests. They increasingly enact criminal justice reforms which are utter lunacy. Just look at the disaster that was bail reform in NYC. Or, as an admittedly extreme example, look at the new, ultra-progressive AG of Manhattan who has decided that armed burglaries and robberies will no longer be prosecuted as a felony as long as no guns are involved (knives are okay, robbing a store with a knife counts as a misdemeanor in his jurisdiction). The bulk of the party has also come to embrace bold structural reforms like abolishing the filibuster or federalizing election laws as well as naked partisan power grabs like DC statehood or packing the Supreme Court.

Yes, there are still blue dogs and genuine moderates who aren't willing to go along with all that, e.g. Manchin and Sinema. Biden is not one of those.


If you really fail to see how Democrats moved meaningfully to the left on these issues in recent years, and how the bulk of the party is now occupying genuinely left-wing positions on these issues, then I can't help you. If this viewpoint makes me a joke who's unable or unwilling to "learn" in your eyes, then so be it.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jan 28 2022 03:11pm

The majority of professionals absolutely do not agree that infrastructure is reckless spending even with a 5 trillion OVER 10 YEARS price tag and the other things listed in your first point they have also moved to the right on, except maybe crime, compared to the 90's. There is no effort from pretty much any Democrats to undo things like the war on drugs (which Biden could immediately end by rescheduling drugs via executive order). Democrats are also virtually identical on foreign policy as much as you will be duped by Republicans. Hell, even going up 5% in taxes is seen as radically liberal now.

5 trillion over 10 years is not reckless spending, even with 5% inflation.
The bulk of the party does not embrace open borders. You are just telling lies. Biden specifically is fighting the ACLU to keep the remain in Mexico policy and Kamala actively says for foreigners not to come.
The party does not embrace fully socialized healthcare. Biden is not even fighting for a public option.

Biden is literally the blue dog not willing to go along with ANY of these. For fucks sake open your eyes. You can nit pick on some of these, but when you say the Democrat party has embraced open borders you've truly just become a joke.

I could go on, because literally every point you listed is bullshit and just highlights how much of a joke you are. This is 100% propaganda. You didn't make a single factually verifiable point here. You spewed Republican talking points without ever taking a second look.

You are a joke. Not worth taking seriously on any level. I've already addressed literally all of these, again, with your acknowledgement on each in the past they you were wrong, but now you are just repeating them again.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Jan 28 2022 03:17pm

Jennifer confirmed during a presser that its going to be a woman justice. She didnt explicitly say that but when referring to the new justice she used the pronoun "her." Although she claimed to have no idea who will be appointed... she is lying about not knowing.

Another really concerning thing she said was the new justice will follow in the footsteps of Breyer. Breyer believed in interpreting the Constitution in new ways as society and culture changes which isnt how the Constitution is meant to be interpreted. The Constitution is meant to be a reference to the past. Its a reference point or baseline that should not be a moving goal post. Its dangerous and idiotic to have justices that see the Constitution as dynamically changing.

Im sure a radical justice will fill the vacancy.

The same people that harp about $5 trillion (and try to imply that the spending is for a single year) will not bat an eye at a $750-800 billion defense budget, and not do the same math that puts defense at $8 trillion over the same time frame.

Except that the majority of these $5 trillion would not be going to infrastructure. You literally regurgitate the Democratic propaganda of branding social spending as "investing into human infrastructure", yet accuse me of being a propaganda victim.



Fair enough. Note, however, that I didn't mention any of these points in my list. Foreign policy is one area in which Democrats haven't gone fully bonkers yet, thank god.



A lot of the spending would perpetuate itself, the real price tag of BBB would end up being significantly higher than these projections...
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/10/politics/build-back-better-cbo-score/index.html

The CBO estimates that the true price tag of the $1.75 trillion proposal at the time would be in the ballpark of $3 trillion. Applying a similar factor, the original proposals made by the Biden admin and congressional Democrats ( the things they and the bulk of the party wanted to pass before they had to placate Manchin) would come with a price tag well in excess of $5 trillion.



https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/most-democrats-promise-to-decriminalize-border-crossings-during-2020-debate


The sheer audacity of accusing me of lying when it is you who's clearly wrong on this specific point is astonishing...


The Biden admin only begrudgingly reinstated the Remain in Mexico policy after a federal court forced him to. Kamala only told foreigners not to come after she and the Biden admin had been sending signals of porous borders for months, triggering a tsunami of people trying to come which has overburdened the border facilities and created a huge mess.

https://apnews.com/article/mexico-courts-immigration-us-supreme-court-a3fe33081fa2909c17e8c08a2c37f818



Okay, maybe not socialized healthcare, but universal healthcare well to the left of Obamacare is definitely the majority position of the party. That Biden isn't currently making healthcare a priority doesn't contradict that. But fair enough, I'll conede this point.


The big majority of my points are demonstrably right, lol, and you are clearly far less impervious to Democratic propaganda than you'd like to think.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jan 28 2022 03:36pm