Of course it is dependent. It's a brand new life. The dependence level of the organism is actually a measurement of it's maturity. A newborn baby is dependent, and legally so until 18. I don't see that as a logical determination for assigning someone the right to terminate another human being's life. Immaturity can not be a moral justification for termination.

I believe it is impossible to legislate against abortion in a fair and meaningful manner. If a woman is raped she should be able to terminate the pregnancy. You allow for that and any woman can just say she was raped. More than that rape victims should not be forced to admit that they were raped.

Then there is the health of the mother. Allowing for that also brings with it a shit storm of difficult circumstances and issues.

Within these points and others like it is where this debate should be. It should be beyond argument though that abortion is a tragedy. That it is the termination of a young human life that has value. It should be a last resort and a painful decision between two parents. I have heard a pregnancy referred to as a worthless clump of cells and that description and simular attitudes make it easier for people to act irresponsibly with their reproductive organs which increases the amount of abortions.

It is not the woman's body. She (in most cases) chose to engage in the act of reproduction and that choice had consequences. That is the pro choice logically consistent and morally sound position.

This post was edited by nineinchnailz on Oct 5 2014 02:59pm

So in the end you're agreeing that ultimately it's the woman's choice, you've just added the drama and morals..

personally my wife and I agree with you, our last child came to us later in life and the obgyn offered to do an amnio. but we both knew instantly that it wouldn't matter
we do have very strong feelings about abortion, but those are feelings and they differ from our beliefs. we would never in a million years consider an abortion yet still believe 100% that it is the woman's choice

Ultimately yes but the journey to get there is the difference between life and death. It's critical that people aren't allowed to devalue the life of unborn children. It leads to more carelessness and death.

Last but not least I want the mother to consider the father's wishes, bbecause it is equally his child. If we dumb down the argument to it's her body that is less likely to happen.

Life begins at conception. That is fact and facts should always be acknowledged regardless of how inconvenient they are or how uncomfortable they make us feel.

It's sad to me that you actually believe that crap LOL.

Yes it's a huge decision and should be carefully considered, the mother should have counseling available to her both pre and post if she does indeed abort.

and yes the woman should consider the father's wishes but they shouldn't override her decision.

Finally it still comes down to her being the only one that can really judge what the right thing to do is.

No it's not. It is heavily debated and dependent on your definition of life.

Well whose choice should it be? It is either the choice of individual women or the choice of a group of men, either/or.

I'm not arguing with you on that point, it is my agreement. It is a personal issue if you believe that it is a moral issue. But it is an act of privacy while there is only one human being involved, and that is the woman. A fertilized egg is not a human being anyway, only in the most fallacious of reasoning. Sure the egg can become something, like a tree can become a table, but chopping down a tree isn't destroying a table...it just is not the same thing. You can't kill something that doesn't exist yet.

You have to believe in some mystical transfusion of a soul into the egg at conception, and we just don't legislate mystic beliefs.

Does anybody have any problem with Roe v. Wade or have any questions about it?



We know what you guys do when you get power. We fight wars on poverty, you fight wars against the poor.

This post was edited by Skinned on Oct 6 2014 05:24am

Yeah what I probably wasn't saying very well was that I think it is always the woman's choice. Personally my wife and my self were totally against the thought of her having one, that was just our personal feeling, and I'd never let that affect my belief that a woman has the right to choose.

To some people rights only extend to things they like

...I believe it to be moral cowardice of the highest order to say out of one side of the mouth that abortion is wrong and out of the other side of the mouth to say it should be the woman's choice .