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Mar 22 2012 01:02pm
Quote (KurosakiIchigo @ Mar 22 2012 02:57pm)
I guess you overlooked that scripture about 'being baptized in the spirit'.


And you must of missed the numerous ones where they are baptized with water ;)
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Mar 22 2012 01:06pm
Quote (xfrodobagginsx @ Mar 19 2012 10:52pm)


Is the video supposed to flash? I think it's trying to give me a seizure.

It blinks every 3 or 4 seconds.

I've never seen anybody jump to so many conclusions and make so many assumptions.
I like it though.

This post was edited by Skinned on Mar 22 2012 01:09pm
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Mar 22 2012 01:06pm
I really can't say if water baptism is required for salvation, though I think the salvation comes first.

The reason I can't offer my opinion is because at my moment of salvation, I had a shower right away, praying to Jesus while asking him to cleanse me of my sin nature.

So I guess in a way it was a baptism. (Then I later got baptised in water at a church, but at that point I had already been saved and changed for about 2 years.)

The first step is definitely realizing you're a sinner, and calling on the name of the Lord to be saved.
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Mar 22 2012 03:52pm
Quote (Dune1 @ 22 Mar 2012 15:02)
And you must of missed the numerous ones where they are baptized with water ;)


Okay, I'll be more specific then....

Matt. 3:11, "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
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Mar 22 2012 06:23pm
You lack understanding. First of all, when this was written, they were in an intermediary time between the law and grace. The water symbolized the repentance, not salvation. Salvation is always, always by grace through faith in The Lord. Jesus shall baptize you with what? The Holy Ghost and with fire. When we place our faith in Christ, He baptizes us with His Holy Ghost. That's the baptism that saves. Not water baptism.

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

The water baptism during John's ministry symbolized Christ's baptism of the spirit which would come when? Under grace. Sounds to me like a different type of baptism which would happen in the future. We are not under John's teachings. Paul was given the gospel of grace, which we are under today.


Salvation is a free gift. All you have to do is accept the gift.


Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is the GOSPEL that saves, NOT water baptism:


1Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, butto preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect


What is the power of God unto salvation? The GOSPEL, not baptism.


Ro 1:16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

It's the power of God unto salvation for who? Everyone that BELIEVETH. I believe it.

You're adding to God's plan of salvation. If baptism were part of salvation, I would be mentioned in the 95% of verses explaining salvation that don't even mention baptism, but say what? It's by GRACE though FAITH in Jesus Christ WITHOUT works. Baptism is a work. It's a good work that we are commanded to do after salvation.

This post was edited by xfrodobagginsx on Mar 22 2012 06:25pm
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Mar 22 2012 06:31pm
Quote (xfrodobagginsx @ Mar 22 2012 08:23pm)
You lack understanding.  First of all, when this was written, they were in an intermediary time between the law and grace.  The water symbolized the repentance, not salvation.  Salvation is always, always by grace through faith in The Lord.  Jesus shall baptize you with what?  The Holy Ghost and with fire.  When we place our faith in Christ, He baptizes us with His Holy Ghost.  That's the baptism that saves.  Not water baptism. 

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

The water baptism during John's ministry symbolized Christ's baptism of the spirit which would come when?  Under grace.  Sounds to me like a different type of baptism which would happen in the future.  We are not under John's teachings.  Paul was given the gospel of grace, which we are under today. 


Salvation is a free gift.  All you have to do is accept the gift. 


Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is the GOSPEL that saves, NOT water baptism:


1Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, butto preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect


What is the power of God unto salvation?  The GOSPEL, not baptism.


Ro 1:16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

It's the power of God unto salvation for who?  Everyone that BELIEVETH.  I believe it.

You're adding to God's plan of salvation.  If baptism were part of salvation, I would be mentioned in the 95% of verses explaining salvation that don't even mention baptism, but say what?  It's by GRACE though FAITH in Jesus Christ WITHOUT works.  Baptism is a work.  It's a good work that we are commanded to do after salvation.


Here is that 95% number again :rolleyes: Let's just go ahead and rip the other 5% out? We don't need it..

learn your bible more..

1 peter 3:21 = and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

But since that doesn't line up with your 95% we'll just delete it. We don't need it.

This post was edited by Dune1 on Mar 22 2012 06:36pm
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Mar 22 2012 07:48pm
But the 5% that you do list aren't saying it either....Why don't you care?

Also, you are picking the translation that best suits your false doctrine to support your false doctrine.

I will use yours anyhow.

So the water SYMBOLIZES God's Baptism...so the water and the baptism are 2 different things here. NOT the removal of dirt, meaning NOT water baptism, but what then?


The Pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by what? The resurrection of Jesus Christ.

What does?

The pledge of a good conscience toward God does.

What is that?

That's placing your faith in Jesus Christ. His Resurrection saves you through your good concience toward Him, not the removal of dirt, but it is symbolized by the water. The Baptism is actually the Holy Spirit, not the water.

So what you want to do is delete the 95% that don't even mention it, then twist up the one's that do to fit your false doctrine.

This post was edited by xfrodobagginsx on Mar 22 2012 07:52pm
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Mar 22 2012 07:50pm
Quote (xfrodobagginsx @ Mar 22 2012 09:48pm)
But the 5% that you do list aren't saying it either....Why don't you care?

Also, you are picking the translation that best suits your false doctrine to support your false doctrine.

I will use yours anyhow. 

So the water SYMBOLIZES God's Baptism...so the water and the baptism are 2 different things here.  NOT the removal of dirt, meaning NOT water baptism, but what then?


The Pledge of a good conscience toward God.  It saves you by what?  The resurrection of Jesus Christ.

What does?

The pledge of a good conscience toward God does. 

So what you want to do is delete the 95% that don't even mention it, then twist up the one's that do to fit your false doctrine.


What are you talking about? The entire context was talking about WATER lol. Wow you are trying so hard to deny scripture it's funny. I am taking the bible at 100% and forming my doctrine off it. you have already admitted countless times you are only taking 95% into account. Who is the worse one here? And people wonder why Christians have a bad stigma for cherry-picking...
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Mar 22 2012 07:58pm





Baptism, John's

was not Christian baptism, nor was that which was practised by the disciples previous to our Lord's crucifixion. Till then the New Testament economy did not exist. John's baptism bound its subjects to repentance, and not to the faith of Christ. It was not administered in the name of the Trinity, and those whom John baptized were rebaptized by Paul (Ac 18:24; 19:7).

Baptism, Christian

an ordinance immediately instituted by Christ (Mt 28:19,20), and designed to be observed in the church, like that of the Supper, "till he come." The words "baptize" and "baptism" are simply Greek words transferred into English. This was necessarily done by the translators of the Scriptures, for no literal translation could properly express all that is implied in them.

The mode of baptism can in no way be determined from the Greek word rendered "baptize." Baptists say that it means "to dip," and nothing else. That is an incorrect view of the meaning of the word. It means both (1) to dip a thing into an element or liquid, and (2) to put an element or liquid over or on it. Nothing therefore as to the mode of baptism can be concluded from the mere word used. The word has a wide latitude of meaning, not only in the New Testament, but also in the LXX. Version of the Old Testament, where it is used of the ablutions and baptisms required by the Mosaic law. These were effected by immersion, and by affusion and sprinkling; and the same word, "washings" (Heb 9:10,13,19,21) or "baptisms," designates them all. In the New Testament there cannot be found a single well-authenticated instance of the occurrence of the word where it necessarily means immersion. Moreover, none of the instances of baptism recorded in the Acts of the Apostles (Ac 2:38-41; 8:26-39; 9:17,18; 22:12-16; 10:44-48; 16:32-34) favours the idea that it was by dipping the person baptized, or by immersion, while in some of them such a mode was highly improbable.

The gospel and its ordinances are designed for the whole world, and it cannot be supposed that a form for the administration of baptism would have been prescribed which would in any place (as in a tropical country or in polar regions) or under any circumstances be inapplicable or injurious or impossible.

Baptism and the Lord's Supper are the two symbolical ordinances of the New Testament. The Supper represents the work of Christ, and Baptism the work of the Spirit. As in the Supper a small amount of bread and wine used in this ordinance exhibits in symbol the great work of Christ, so in Baptism the work of the Holy Spirit is fully seen in the water poured or sprinkled on the person in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. That which is essential in baptism is only "washing with water," no mode being specified and none being necessary or essential to the symbolism of the ordinance.

The apostles of our Lord were baptized with the Holy Ghost (Mt 3:11) by his coming upon them (Ac 1:8). The fire also with which they were baptized sat upon them. The extraordinary event of Pentecost was explained by Peter as a fulfilment of the ancient promise that the Spirit would be poured out in the last days (Ac 2:17). He uses also with the same reference the expression shed forth as descriptive of the baptism of the Spirit (Ac 2:33). In the Pentecostal baptism "the apostles were not dipped into the Spirit, nor plunged into the Spirit; but the Spirit was shed forth, poured out, fell on them (Ac 11:15), came upon them, sat on them." That was a real and true baptism. We are warranted from such language to conclude that in like manner when water is poured out, falls, comes upon or rests upon a person when this ordinance is administered, that person is baptized. Baptism is therefore, in view of all these arguments "rightly administered by pouring or sprinkling water upon the person."

The subjects of baptism. This raises questions of greater importance than those relating to its mode.

1. The controversy here is not about "believers' baptism," for that is common to all parties. Believers were baptized in apostolic times, and they have been baptized in all time by all the branches of the church. It is altogether a misrepresentation to allege, as is sometimes done by Baptists, that their doctrine is "believers' baptism." Every instance of adult baptism, or of "believers' baptism," recorded in the New Testament (Ac 2:41; 8:37; 9:17,18; 10:47; 16:15; 19:5, etc.) is just such as would be dealt with in precisely the same way by all branches of the Protestant Church, a profession of faith or of their being "believers" would be required from every one of them before baptism. The point in dispute is not the baptism of believers, but whether the infant children of believers, i.e., of members of the church, ought to be baptized.

2. In support of the doctrine of infant baptism, i.e., of the baptism of the infants, or rather the "children," of believing parents, the following considerations may be adduced:

The Church of Christ exists as a divinely organized community. It is the "kingdom of God," one historic kingdom under all dispensations. The commonwealth of Israel was the "church" (Ac 7:38; Ro 9:4) under the Mosaic dispensation. The New Testament church is not a new and different church, but one with that of the Old Testament. The terms of admission into the church have always been the same viz., a profession of faith and a promise of subjection to the laws of the kingdom. Now it is a fact beyond dispute that the children of God's people under the old dispensation were recognized as members of the church. Circumcision was the sign and seal of their membership. It was not because of carnal descent from Abraham, but as being the children of God's professing people, that this rite was administered (Ro 4:11). If children were members of the church under the old dispensation, which they undoubtedly were, then they are members of the church now by the same right, unless it can be shown that they have been expressly excluded. Under the Old Testament parents acted for their children and represented them. (See Ge 9:9; 17:10; Ex 24:7,8; De 29:9-13.) When parents entered into covenant with God, they brought their children with them. This was a law in the Hebrew Church. When a proselyte was received into membership, he could not enter without bringing his children with him. The New Testament does not exclude the children of believers from the church. It does not deprive them of any privilege they enjoyed under the Old Testament. There is no command or statement of any kind, that can be interpreted as giving any countenance to such an idea, anywhere to be found in the New Testament. The church membership of infants has never been set aside. The ancient practice, orginally appointed by God himself, must remain a law of his kingdom till repealed by the same divine authority. There are lambs in the fold of the Good Shepherd (Joh 21:15; comp. Lu 1:15; Mt 19:14; 1Co 7:14).

"In a company of converts applying for admission into Christ's house there are likely to be some heads of families. How is their case to be treated? How, for example, are Lydia and her neighbour the keeper of the city prison to be treated? Both have been converted. Both are heads of families. They desire to be received into the infant church of Philippi. What is Christ's direction to them? Shall we say that it is to this effect: 'Arise, and wash away your sins, and come into my house. But you must come in by yourselves. These babes in your arms, you must leave them outside. They cannot believe yet, and so they cannot come in. Those other little ones by your side, their hearts may perhaps have been touched with the love of God; still, they are not old enough to make a personal profession, so they too must be left outside...For the present you must leave them where they are and come in by yourselves.' One may reasonably demand very stringent proofs before accepting this as a fair representation of the sort of welcome Christ offers to parents who come to his door bringing their children with them. Surely it is more consonant with all we know about him to suppose that his welcome will be more ample in its scope, and will breathe a more gracious tone. Surely it would be more like the Good Shepherd to say, 'Come in, and bring your little ones along with you. The youngest needs my salvation; and the youngest is accessible to my salvation. You may be unable as yet to deal with them about either sin or salvation, but my gracious power can find its way into their hearts even now. I can impart to them pardon and a new life. From Adam they have inherited sin and death; and I can so unite them to myself that in me they shall be heirs of righteousness and life. You may without misgiving bring them to me. And the law of my house requires that the same day which witnesses your reception into it by baptism must witness their reception also'" (The Church, by Professor Binnie, D.D.).
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Mar 22 2012 08:03pm
Quote (Dune1 @ Mar 23 2012 01:50am)
What are you talking about?  The entire context was talking about WATER lol.  Wow you are trying so hard to deny scripture it's funny.  I am taking the bible at 100% and forming my doctrine off it.  you have already admitted countless times you are only taking 95% into account.  Who is the worse one here?  And people wonder why Christians have a bad stigma for cherry-picking...


No it isn't. Why can't you see it? What does He mean by NOT the removal of the filth of the flesh, BUT the answer of a good concience toward God...

He's saying it's not water that saves. It's the answer of a good concience toward God.

All you can think about is WATER baptism. There are more different typse of Baptism. You can't see past the word baptism.

The WATER was added by your faulty translator to push your false doctrine.

Notice that none of these versions use the word water in them. It's added purposely to yours to push a particular belief.

King James Version:


1Pe 3:21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

American Standard Version:

1Pe 3:21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; (ASV)

Bible in Basic english:

1Pe 3:21 ¶ And baptism, of which this is an image, now gives you salvation, not by washing clean the flesh, but by making you free from the sense of sin before God, through the coming again of Jesus Christ from the dead; (BBE)

Darby:

1Pe 3:21 ¶ which figure also now saves you, [even] baptism, not a putting away of [the] filth of flesh, but [the] demand as before God of a good conscience, by [the] resurrection of Jesus Christ, (DBY)

Modern King James version

1Pe 3:21 which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ; (MKJV)

Montgomery's New Testiment.

1Pe 3:21 Baptism, the counterpart of that, now saves you (not the washing off of the filth of the flesh, but the prayer for a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (MNT)

New King James version


1Pe 3:21 ¶ There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (NKJV)



1Pe 3:21 This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (WEB)

This post was edited by xfrodobagginsx on Mar 22 2012 08:09pm
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