imagine some foreign voyeur complaining about any other nation’s political system when the nation he/she resides in had/has one which allowed adolf and the third reich to take over and wage a war that killed scores of millions

I get it though. The American government is more powerful and has more influence on his citizens than his OWN government.

you have to distinguish between 'there haven't been any long term studies that were able to determine the exact extent of the environmental impact of fracking' and 'it's completely open if there are any ramifications at all' - because it's not. if you actually reasearched it, you'd know that. you'd also know how it disproportionally affects poor and minority communities that already suffer from a lack of protection concerning basic things like their water supplies.

furthermore, i absolutely hate the arrogant 'well the public is uninformed anyway' argument, whenever someone wants to defend their particular flavour of corporate shillery. sure, it's fair to say that your average citizen is NOT an expert (or even too interested) in every single political issue, but it's not the public's task to draft detailed legislation ready to pass - it's a politician's job to take the issues of their constituents seriously and craft legislation that best represents their will. what happens in america is that interest groups write legislation for politicians, and the people simply don't matter at all.

take your healthcare example, and all the hackery that is done around the polling concerning the issue, where the profiteers of the current system follow your approach and make the terrible argument that little can be done because the american people simply can't settle for one system. i guarantee you that every single semi to high profile politician, even the complete moron trump, is well aware that the vast majority of americans would want a system that reigns in drug prices, the power of insurers, and affordable coverage for everyone, ideally NOT directly linked to their employment - but politicians, big pharma, and insurers are all playing political games, pretend that there's just no clear mandate for one exact approach, so no substantial change can be made - and it's BOTH establishments who pretend they just couldn't find a solution, while getting rich off special interest for doing so. how cynical and disgusting is that?

This post was edited by fender on Jul 11 2020 02:30pm

One thing to keep in mind with this debate about the EC is that the set of swing states is not static, they change all the time. There was a time when Illinois and Texas were swing states, there was a time when New York decided something like 6 elections in a row.
Let's be honest here: the reason why liberals rediscovered their hatred for the EC in recent years is that the current configuration of swing states favors "un-woke" white working class voters with whom their platform doesnt play well.


And it must of course be noted that this whole EC-popular vote split we've seen wouldnt have occurred without the illegal immigration that liberals cherish and foster. Had places like California, New York or Chicago not been soaked up with illegals for decades (whose U.S.-born offspring grows up to be a voting-eligible and super Democratic leaning voting bloc), Democrats wouldnt win these states by such lopsided margins without gaining any electoral votes.

Right and I don't have a problem with that. How corn is subsidized and taxed should be debated among economists, not the American people. The same principle applies to almost every single industry. It is arrogant and elitist but so what? That's literally the point of legislators. If a particular industry is really fucking over the American people, there are plenty of groups who will advocate on behalf of the American people (i.e. see the bad press about Monsanto).

I will admit that healthcare is very weird in America. Americans are very strange in general when it comes to healthcare. A lot of people are incredibly distrustful of the government getting involved in healthcare even though the private sector is REALLY screwing the American people. Obamacare was a massive step in the right direction and I believe that a Biden administration will get us even closer to universal healthcare. I'm hopeful that insulin prices will be reigned in because that's low-hanging fruit and there is massive demand for it. Many Republicans and Democrats agree and campaign on that.

27% amongst republicans vs 12% amongst democrats - that's how much opinion on the popular vote changed over the last two decades according to a source that YOU posted yesterday - and now you're here trying to portray the 12% as the unprincipled side. could you be more of a hack if you tried to?

also, it's funny how you only want to 'keep in mind' what you think helps your case, you don't look at the facts objectively, and outright ignore what doesn't fit your narrative. you're desperately trying to APPEAR reasonable, but your 'arguments' couldn't speak louder about your dishonesty.

here's the thing: it's NOT decided by 'economists' or 'experts' though, it's decided by interest groups who directly PROFIT from the policy they introduce, dangerous (for the economy / environment / worker rights) industries directly writing legislation deregulating themselves for example. you can't possibly be gullible enough not to see the difference between a group of independent experts and specialists that know the issue in all its minutiae (in that case i would agree, elitist but effective, and probably generally beneficial) on the one hand, and lobbyists that directly benefit from objectively bad decisions crafting policy. those are two completely different things that you just tried to sell as the same there. holy shit, and i thought trump people were dishonest...

I think what you're saying is a gross generalization because it REALLY depends on the industry. Some industries are significantly worse than others and some are actually trying to make this country better. I don't buy into the populist rhetoric that all lobbying is corrupt. I'm not saying that it's all the same either. My initial complaint was your instistence that what the majority wants matter and I strongly disagree with that statement.

I think what we can agree on is the following: we need to invest a lot more into Congressional staff so that we can have a stronger check on lobbyists.

ah so it’s jealousy, a carnal desire for said power which he wishes would have been expressed in a hypothetical victorious third reich where his ancestor joseph and his buddy adolf had government control over the entire world (by force)

I was referring more to liberal opinion leaders, the journalists and pundits. They didnt churn out pieces about how the EC is a disaster for democracy and should be abolished asap from 2006 until fall of 2016, i.e. during the decade where they were generally "winning".




Funny how the facts are always supporting fender's position (according to fender) .... and anyone disagreeing with your opinion is ignorant, moronic, uninformed or a hack.





While I agree with this position - or let's rather call it an 'ideal' - in a general sense, I do feel that the people of the United States have indeed been betrayed by their elites (politicians, experts, lobbyists advocating for genuinely awful legislation) at a far higher rate than those of most other countries. I dont think that large swaths of the population would have lost trust in their elites to this extent without good reason. The end result is a growing penchant for populism, be it from the right (Trump) or the left (Bernie).

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jul 12 2020 05:39am