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Sep 7 2018 03:37am
Quote (Horford @ Sep 6 2018 12:39am)
"Trump's impulses aregenerally anti-trade and anti-democratic"


"But the USA is a republic, not a democracy!"
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Sep 7 2018 03:40am
Quote (ampoo @ Sep 7 2018 11:37am)
the democrats are losing it completely imo, running riot just like our leftist parties in germany, completely unable to reflect on their actions



the electoral college is necessary for a country like the us if the states with smaller population are to bo represented somehow

is that really so hard?


This again?

Each person's vote should be represented fairlt, regardless of where they live. In a "the winner takes it all" system, there is no concept of "being adequately represented". The winner either represents you (because you voted for them) or doesn't (because you didn't vote for them). The only thing that the electorate college does is make some people's votes matter more than other people's, arbitrarily depending on which state they live in.

This post was edited by Leevee on Sep 7 2018 03:40am
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Sep 7 2018 03:42am
Quote (ampoo @ Sep 7 2018 09:37am)
the democrats are losing it completely imo, running riot just like our leftist parties in germany, completely unable to reflect on their actions



the electoral college is necessary for a country like the us if the states with smaller population are to bo represented somehow

is that really so hard?


Don't state's rights exist for this reason?
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Sep 7 2018 04:09am
Quote (Leevee @ 7 Sep 2018 11:40)
This again?

Each person's vote should be represented fairlt, regardless of where they live. In a "the winner takes it all" system, there is no concept of "being adequately represented". The winner either represents you (because you voted for them) or doesn't (because you didn't vote for them). The only thing that the electorate college does is make some people's votes matter more than other people's, arbitrarily depending on which state they live in.


both proportional representation and first-past-the-post voting systems have their advantages and disadvantages.
I admit, however, that the american system of FPTP on the state level, with states of vastly differing size and demographics, is suboptimal.

Imho, the best system in a FPTP system on a district level, like in the UK or Australia, with the head of government then decided by the representatives elected to parliament from their districts.

Imagine if the house majority decided the presidency and gerrymandering didnt exist - this would imho be a much better system.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Sep 7 2018 04:10am
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Sep 7 2018 04:30am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Sep 7 2018 09:09pm)
both proportional representation and first-past-the-post voting systems have their advantages and disadvantages.
I admit, however, that the american system of FPTP on the state level, with states of vastly differing size and demographics, is suboptimal.

Imho, the best system in a FPTP system on a district level, like in the UK or Australia, with the head of government then decided by the representatives elected to parliament from their districts.

Imagine if the house majority decided the presidency and gerrymandering didnt exist - this would imho be a much better system.


The australian system works well, where we break down is our preference system where parties can hand off their votes to other parties, basically just means the 2 party system is unbreakable.
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Sep 7 2018 04:32am
Quote (Plaguefear @ 7 Sep 2018 12:30)
The australian system works well, where we break down is our preference system where parties can hand off their votes to other parties, basically just means the 2 party system is unbreakable.


only as long no 3rd party is able to locally break into it. and ranked choice voting allows people to express their preference for a 3rd party without risking to waste their vote, so 3rd parties do have the opportunity to gain traction.
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Sep 7 2018 04:37am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Sep 7 2018 09:32pm)
only as long no 3rd party is able to locally break into it. and ranked choice voting allows people to express their preference for a 3rd party without risking to waste their vote, so 3rd parties do have the opportunity to gain traction.


Greens get around 10% of the vote, our far right rabble get about 12%, so its easier here than america but still leaves a lot to be desired.
They have a scam here where they make 50 different parties with names like "The fishermans party" that have no platform just to filter votes down to one of the big parties.
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Sep 7 2018 04:54am
Country is doing so well that dems have to make fake headlines now to hit trump
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Sep 7 2018 04:57am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Sep 7 2018 10:09am)
both proportional representation and first-past-the-post voting systems have their advantages and disadvantages.
I admit, however, that the american system of FPTP on the state level, with states of vastly differing size and demographics, is suboptimal.

Imho, the best system in a FPTP system on a district level, like in the UK or Australia, with the head of government then decided by the representatives elected to parliament from their districts.

Imagine if the house majority decided the presidency and gerrymandering didnt exist - this would imho be a much better system.


On a sidenote, representation in the US has been dwindling. The US has the largest representation size in OECD countries:



Quote
he 12th, the Apportionment Amendment, has languished unratified by the states, apparently by accident. In just the past decade, archival research has suggested that Connecticut ratified the amendment in 1790 without Congress noticing, meaning it should have taken effect upon Vermont’s ratification in 1791. But the Supreme Court in 2012 rejected an appeal to get the amendment recognized, and so, despite apparently going through all the steps to become part of the Constitution in 1791, it remains unratified.

The amendment read:

After the first enumeration required by the first article of the Constitution, there shall be one Representative for every thirty thousand, until the number shall amount to one hundred, after which the proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that there shall be not less than one hundred Representatives, nor less than one Representative for every forty thousand persons, until the number of Representatives shall amount to two hundred; after which the proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that there shall not be less than two hundred Representatives, nor more than one Representative for every fifty thousand persons.

That last clause contains what most scholars of the Apportionment Amendment consider a scrivener’s error: “nor more than one Representative for every fifty thousand persons” should read “nor less than one Representative for every fifty thousand persons”; the screw-up is technical, but this piece has a good explanation of what happened (it involves the secretary of the Senate misunderstanding a direction).

If the amendment were to be ratified today by another 27 states and become part of the Constitution, with the scrivener’s error corrected, then the House of Representatives would have to ensure at least one representative for every 50,000 people, or about 6,489 representatives total.


Wasn't proper representation in government one of the reasons the US rebelled against the English?

Or do people here think that state-level representation is enough to compensate for this lack of federal representation?
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Sep 7 2018 06:35am
Quote (balrog66 @ Sep 7 2018 04:57am)
On a sidenote, representation in the US has been dwindling. The US has the largest representation size in OECD countries:

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/Y0yckSJEntAob40SeJtLGJ4a6Ko=/0x0:640x555/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:640x555)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/11462849/FT_18.05.18_RepresentationRatios_OECD.png



Wasn't proper representation in government one of the reasons the US rebelled against the English?

Or do people here think that state-level representation is enough to compensate for this lack of federal representation?


kinda. we had taxation without any representation. while "not enough representation" is a tangential issue, it's not directly the same. But a perfect comparison cant be expected when comparing an era with communication by horse carriage letter mail and twitter. I think the answer will eventually be online voting, which will breed a new problem, online referendum requests. we've already seen some of these issues play out, from people entering bogus requests on the whitehouse website to people naming a boat Boaty McBoatface. When you give the populace a resounding voice the tone is often mocking when it speaks.
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