It's not fallacy to say that if a person does not want to be a Christian anymore, then they are in fact, not a Christian anymore. It's logic.

It's fallacy for you to say "they were never a Christian to begin with" because there are plenty of people (including the reference I gave you) that come into the faith, and for whatever reason, decide to leave it.

Yes, but we cannot make that claim that someone "lost" their faith or "decided to leave it", that is God's decision.



This post was edited by HighschoolTurd on Jun 30 2014 02:23pm

Yet we can make the claim they were never Christian? Seems a bit hypocritical..

Also, scriptures are clear that you can tell who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit based on their deeds and actions. So yes, we can to an extent, tell who "decided to leave" the faith. We also know if they straight out say "I no longer believe in God".

...just want to hit on two topics here .

1 - I do not believe a person can lose their salvation .

2 - In way too many cases orchestrated demonstrations of tongues and prophecy are used as emotional manipulation to generate increased offerings .

Well that's where we differ then. I just wouldn't tell someone they have lost their faith, or say it's possible to lose their faith. Because once saved and truly a Christian, you are promised everlasting life in heaven. It's solely dependent on how they interpret being a "Christian" which makes it impossible to make an objective statement on this.
If the person decides to pertru "I no longer believe in God", what basis do we have for proof that they were REALLY a Christian? None. That's my point. We as humans will never truly know if someone is a Christian or not. Again, dependent on the Christian interpretation.

Furthermore, if that person is truly saved, they are promised everlasting life. But if they are not saved, they aren't. I agree with this, but we cannot make judgement on others about if they're saved or not, only God knows.

And I'm saying that phrase objectively, out of the bible. Not my opinion. John 10:28–29 "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

In conclusion, what I'm trying to say to you is: There will be a judgement day, and it's between God and I only. Any outside chirp's about other humans judging other(s) if they lost their salvation is hearsay and really irrelevant at the end.

But, I respect your view, it's just not something I would say. I would be objective about it and point to verses, and never say anything about someone's salvation.

...not losing salvation does not mean a person can not lose their faith .

Except that there are verses that also say otherwise. It's important that we teach the whole bible, and not just the fluffy parts.

Going to the beach for a few hours. I'll come back and pick this up.

Yes, I'm not talking about faith though. Sure you can lose your faith and I agree with you, but I'm talking about salvation. If I mixed them up a bit in my post about that, I apologize.




But it's really irrelevant in the physical world to even make claims that someone can lose their salvation, because we as humans are NOT the judge! It's between them and God. That is why I believe it's illogical and fallacious to try to tell other(s) they will lose their salvation, or that they have it! People can claim to be Christians all day long. But we are not them, we don't know who they truly are. We cannot make these types of claims. We can see that if they go to Church, pray, do good deeds, prophesize that they gave their heart to Jesus, but in the end it's still heresay and not objectively TRUE.

The "we are just humans" is an excuse for not being accountable for one another. You and I are talking about two different things. Being concerned for one's salvation is vastly different than "judging" someone. It's dangerous thinking to allow people to think that just because they are saved, they can act however they want. 2 Tim. tells us that the scriptures are useful for correcting, rebuking, and training in righteousness. As "humans" our job is to point people to the truth. The truth is love, but it is also justice. To only teach them a half truth is the same as lying to them. Galatians 6 tells us to hold each other accountable with our transgressions.. why? If we are saved no matter what, why does accountability, correcting, and rebuking matter?

Let's take the example of homosexuality (since it's a hot topic). If someone begins to follow Christ and years down the road they become a practicing homosexual, are we supposed to just say "well, not my problem!" No! We are supposed to correct their actions and their lifestyle. Why? Because unrepentant sin affects salvation since salvation is conditional on repentance.

...no , it is not . You are adding to the Christian teaching that we are saved by grace through faith ; faith alone , not faith plus repentance .