Quote (Cascadian @ Aug 16 2022 06:24pm)

The.. implication... of this raid is interesting.

Quote (JessiWan @ Aug 16 2022 03:46pm)

I never said they had to ask. Rather my point is that you cannot prove that Trump isn't in the process of returning those papers. If he can prove that he really has the intention of returning the papers but is just taking a while, then it's a crime that's a lot less serious.



Fender is. He said, "why doesn't the law apply to Trump" which is the assumption that Trump is guilty already. I had a problem with this statement of his, that's all.



You are right that possession of classified material one has no authority for is a crime, and I guess in a strict, technical sense, Trump is indeed in such a possession. However, this is not analogous to a criminal having some crystal meth on him. Trump used to be president, and he had access to that kind of documents. It is conceivable he took some of these home with him when he was still potus and the papers stayed there and either he forgot to return them, or like I said earlier, he is in the process of returning them. And most importantly, at the time when he took those papers home, there was probably no criminal intention. A criminal getting hold of crystal meth knows what he's doing is illegal. A sitting president taking sensitive papers home with him does not think what he's doing is illegal.

Although I admit I am not too sure about the legality of a POTUS taking sensitive documents home with him.

Quote (FantasyWorldII @ Aug 16 2022 09:16pm)

Because its fun and extremely easy I guess

Quote (thesnipa @ Aug 17 2022 05:06am)

Let me clear it up for you, a president by his position and with the resources he has is by proxy liable for possession. he can not claim ignorance of the legality. it is assumed he knows, or legally MUST know, the same way we all are expected to know meth possession is illegal. and there is no statute im aware of where the intent to return lessens the crime. i feel like u made that up.

Quote (JessiWan @ Aug 17 2022 09:12am)

I mentioned intent to show that it's not the same as the meth example you brought up.

But anyway, it's like what I said to Surfpunk, I admit that its extremely difficult to defend the fact Trump brought those papers home with him. Him viewing and accessing sensitive papers outside of designated facilities is illegal, even when he was still president. There is no way around this.

Quote (thesnipa @ Aug 17 2022 07:20am)

Intent is great, but intent is NOT applicable in all laws. You do not need to have mens rea (criminal intent) to be guilty of some laws, the possession of classified material is among these.

you may ask why, because if it were ANYONE could claim once caught with classified material they didnt intend to have it, and then be let off. what does that sound like? crystal meth? "i swear officer it isnt mine, someone must have put that there." posession is 9/10ths of the law.

Quote (JessiWan @ Aug 17 2022 09:28am)

You are correct, and I agree with you. One cannot cite ignorance of law to get out of it. Trump is expected to know that bringing sensitive documents home is illegal. But he did it anyway. Lock him up for this. But not for anything else. Whether the documents actually contain nuclear secrets is not important. Even if they don't, he still has committed a crime.

Quote (thesnipa @ Aug 17 2022 08:05am)

almost right. mistake of law is an applicable legal defense for some infractions, as is mistake of fact (i.e. whether something is classified, OR if he can declassify them in a certain way). but again mistake of law and mistake of fact are not applicable defenses for the possession of classified materials. and what the files contain is applicable in a number of ways, it can be either as simple as used in sentencing (i.e. if he had a "classified" memo that wasn't much of anything it wouldn't likely be any jail time, if it's nuclear codes we're talking LONG prison sentence), and what is in them can be used to argue intent for further crimes. for example the only conceivable reason to have nuclear codes is to give them to someone else. i'm not crazy and speculating Trump is selling codes to Putin, i'm just saying content of what he took does matter, from a legal standpoint.