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Oct 22 2024 09:06am
Quote (zorzin @ 22 Oct 2024 05:57)
Terrible argument.

Is it a genocide? No
Is Israel cutting corners via indiscriminate bombing? Yes

The problem I have is that Israel doesn't use PGMs to target Hamas and just lobs jdams willy-nilly because it knows that no one can do anything about it. 10 civs to 1 hamas casualty (IMO) is unacceptable. Look at the difference between how Israel attacks Hezbollah compared to Hamas, and you will find your answer.

IOF besiege families in Jabalia camp, Beit Lahia
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/iof-besiege-families-in-jabalia-camp--beit-lahia

I can go toe-to-toe with you on this subject if you want to dance fam. Im all for Israel bombing the shit outa hamas/hezz/iran, but they are doing a piss-poor job of limiting civilian casualties in Gaza compared to what they can. Its because they have to save up all their precious munitions to fight Hezbollah, so Gaza gets dumb-bombed into oblivion by AI targeting software.


I've agreed with you many times in this thread about "artificial intelligence" and how it's application in this conflict is unjust but let me reiterate again what maybe you forget or are unaware of when it comes to AI drones/planes/etc. and I'll use the actual events in this conflict that prove how AI fails and why I agree with you to a "certain extent".

Hamas terrorist are easily identifiable through AI at all levels. They have satellite technology that can show the year of a DIME being held in someone's hand from "outer-space". They know what tunnels they went into. They know everything. How? Because there are satellites going around the planet 24/7 365 and it's the US military supplying this "information" directly to the IDF. They can and have gone "back in time" through satellite imagery to locate the major Hamas "outposts" "hideouts" because all they had to do was have a 100-1000 IDF soldiers "look through" the satellite images to see where these "terrorist moved to/from" etc.

Now let's take that to the next step of AI. AI has now identified all potential targets and all their proximities. What ends up happening that is supported by FACT in this conflict? Hamas terrorist and those associated with them "meet in groups" and are often hiding amongst innocent people like elderly/children near schools/hospitals. What does the AI do when it's scanning over Gaza? It sees 4 Hamas terrorist "gather" outside a school/beneath it/etc. and fires the KILL SHOT. This "KILL SHOT" is suppose to be "clicked" by an actual "human being" manually. The reason for this goes back to the United States being held accountable by the UN for using "unmanned drones" to kill "any target" they pre-programmed it to kill. The US was banned from doing this but let's be real they still use it and gave it to the Israeli's because they used it in the same terrain throughout the Middle East for the previous 25+ years.

Gaza is not IRAN. Gaza is not IRAQ. Gaza is not Afghanistan. Gaza is not Libya. Gaza is not Somalia. Gaza is not Syria.

Gaza is a small sliver of land and because of that it is infinitely harder to do what you are saying, "Avoid human casualties". Especially when the Hamas terrorist themselves hide amongst men/woman/children.

This is why I don't blame the IDF one bit UNLESS they are sending out "unmanned drones" with "STK-shoot to kill" pre-programmed.

They are walking a fine line trying to appease the rest of the world for something that they themselves didn't start. Now whether you want to think that on 10/7 they(the IDF) were given a "stand-down" order is up to debate and I've seen people argue this both ways. George Bush did 9/11 is often now being Benjamin Netanyahu did 10/7. Why do people say this? It takes less then 30 seconds to scramble a jet that goes 1,500-2,000 MPH. Why then did the IDF take HOURS to respond on 10/7. Why didn't Dick Cheney scramble a jet to shoot down the 2nd/3rd planes on 9/11? This is again where I'll argue against my own country and it's ally Israel that they allowed a "small terrorist attack" to become (9/11 or 10/7) to continue the never ending war on terror in the Middle East. Notice how dumb the average American is. "War on Terror" is a war on an "abstract concept". Terrorism is not a COUNTRY/PEOPLE/etc. and so when George Bush said, "You are either with us or the terrorist" he was essentially saying, "Anyone who challenges the US military anywhere on planet Earth will be deemed a terrorist state and be eradicated". The US funded every terrorist group in the Middle East when it was advantageous to their own agenda.

Could the IDF do "better" of course they could've carpet bombed Gaza to dust and what would've been the "worlds teary response"? "Oh wow those poor innocent people" but the "conflict" would be OVER in ONE day had the IDF acted as the US would've. This whole the IDF blows up a school a week or a hospital every month is what keeps people around the world "emotionally involved" in a conflict that could've been over by 10/10 if the IDF really wanted but they CHOSE to attempt to rescue hostages(at great risk to themselves) and then continue to walk this fine line while the world watches.

This is why the people from the US in this thread crying for Palestinians is CRINGE. You didn't cry for the MILLIONS of dead Iraqi men/woman/children but now you suddenly care? I highly doubt it.

I'm not saying people in this thread don't care but if you cared about the Palestinians plight you would've created a thread on this sub forum 20 years ago not on 10/7. People need to stop lying to themselves. I say the same thing to my family/friends. Didn't care about Ukraine until after Putin "invaded" and didn't care about Palestinians until after the 10/7 terrorist attack and they were "caught in the middle" just like any person in an armed conflict. To the military people are just numbers and the rules of war are always broken so what we are seeing is normal for "modern warfare". AI drone accidentally bombing a hospital because there were 20 Hamas terrorist "beneath it" that's up to you whether the IDF soldier "gave the command" or AI did it itself but it allows the IDF to ultimately skirt responsibility by saying, "AI went haywire and the missle hit the wrong location". Good alibi in my opinion.
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Oct 22 2024 09:52am
Quote (SwamiVivekananda @ 22 Oct 2024 18:06)
I've agreed with you many times in this thread about "artificial intelligence" and how it's application in this conflict is unjust but let me reiterate again what maybe you forget or are unaware of when it comes to AI drones/planes/etc. and I'll use the actual events in this conflict that prove how AI fails and why I agree with you to a "certain extent".

Hamas terrorist are easily identifiable through AI at all levels. They have satellite technology that can show the year of a DIME being held in someone's hand from "outer-space". They know what tunnels they went into. They know everything. How? Because there are satellites going around the planet 24/7 365 and it's the US military supplying this "information" directly to the IDF. They can and have gone "back in time" through satellite imagery to locate the major Hamas "outposts" "hideouts" because all they had to do was have a tel:100-1000100-1000[/URL] IDF soldiers "look through" the satellite images to see where these "terrorist moved to/from" etc.

Now let's take that to the next step of AI. AI has now identified all potential targets and all their proximities. What ends up happening that is supported by FACT in this conflict? Hamas terrorist and those associated with them "meet in groups" and are often hiding amongst innocent people like elderly/children near schools/hospitals. What does the AI do when it's scanning over Gaza? It sees 4 Hamas terrorist "gather" outside a school/beneath it/etc. and fires the KILL SHOT. This "KILL SHOT" is suppose to be "clicked" by an actual "human being" manually. The reason for this goes back to the United States being held accountable by the UN for using "unmanned drones" to kill "any target" they pre-programmed it to kill. The US was banned from doing this but let's be real they still use it and gave it to the Israeli's because they used it in the same terrain throughout the Middle East for the previous 25+ years.

Gaza is not IRAN. Gaza is not IRAQ. Gaza is not Afghanistan. Gaza is not Libya. Gaza is not Somalia. Gaza is not Syria.

Gaza is a small sliver of land and because of that it is infinitely harder to do what you are saying, "Avoid human casualties". Especially when the Hamas terrorist themselves hide amongst men/woman/children.

This is why I don't blame the IDF one bit UNLESS they are sending out "unmanned drones" with "STK-shoot to kill" pre-programmed.

They are walking a fine line trying to appease the rest of the world for something that they themselves didn't start. Now whether you want to think that on 10/7 they(the IDF) were given a "stand-down" order is up to debate and I've seen people argue this both ways. George Bush did 9/11 is often now being Benjamin Netanyahu did 10/7. Why do people say this? It takes less then 30 seconds to scramble a jet that goes 1,500-2,000 MPH. Why then did the IDF take HOURS to respond on 10/7. Why didn't Dick Cheney scramble a jet to shoot down the 2nd/3rd planes on 9/11? This is again where I'll argue against my own country and it's ally Israel that they allowed a "small terrorist attack" to become (9/11 or 10/7) to continue the never ending war on terror in the Middle East. Notice how dumb the average American is. "War on Terror" is a war on an "abstract concept". Terrorism is not a COUNTRY/PEOPLE/etc. and so when George Bush said, "You are either with us or the terrorist" he was essentially saying, "Anyone who challenges the US military anywhere on planet Earth will be deemed a terrorist state and be eradicated". The US funded every terrorist group in the Middle East when it was advantageous to their own agenda.

Could the IDF do "better" of course they could've carpet bombed Gaza to dust and what would've been the "worlds teary response"? "Oh wow those poor innocent people" but the "conflict" would be OVER in ONE day had the IDF acted as the US would've. This whole the IDF blows up a school a week or a hospital every month is what keeps people around the world "emotionally involved" in a conflict that could've been over by 10/10 if the IDF really wanted but they CHOSE to attempt to rescue hostages(at great risk to themselves) and then continue to walk this fine line while the world watches.

This is why the people from the US in this thread crying for Palestinians is CRINGE. You didn't cry for the MILLIONS of dead Iraqi men/woman/children but now you suddenly care? I highly doubt it.

I'm not saying people in this thread don't care but if you cared about the Palestinians plight you would've created a thread on this sub forum 20 years ago not on 10/7. People need to stop lying to themselves. I say the same thing to my family/friends. Didn't care about Ukraine until after Putin "invaded" and didn't care about Palestinians until after the 10/7 terrorist attack and they were "caught in the middle" just like any person in an armed conflict. To the military people are just numbers and the rules of war are always broken so what we are seeing is normal for "modern warfare". AI drone accidentally bombing a hospital because there were 20 Hamas terrorist "beneath it" that's up to you whether the IDF soldier "gave the command" or AI did it itself but it allows the IDF to ultimately skirt responsibility by saying, "AI went haywire and the missle hit the wrong location". Good alibi in my opinion.


This isn’t how things work. By your logic, we could have ended the war from the air, using AI drones to eliminate every Hamas member. If this were a feasible option, we would already be doing it. Sadly, it’s more complicated than that.

We have many ways to potentially speed up the conflict, but fortunately for the people of Gaza, they’re not up against another Arab dictatorship—they’re up against a democracy. That’s why we have boots on the ground.

I’m not claiming that every IDF soldier is perfect, but the orders are clear: avoid civilian casualties.
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Oct 22 2024 10:02am
I also like to draw the statistical comparison (OOM) Order of Magnitude and why when countries ambassadors at the UN get on the floor and say, "What's happening in Gaza is a genocide. Are just ignorant of simple math.

3,500 US citizens died on 9/11 and we have a population of 350m++

1,200 Israeli citizens died on 10/7 and their country has a population of 10m(x35)(350m) and you are looking at 50,000 dead if you adjust numbers.

The US military killed MILLIONS of people across multiple countries and most those deaths weren't from BOMBS/BULLETS they were from "starving people" "cutting off life-saving medicine" "trade halts" "humanitarian aid cut off" etc. and in the words of Madeline Albright on 60 minutes when asked, "Was 500,000 dead Iraqi men/woman/children worth it" to which she replied 'YES".

Israel actively tries to help the very same people it's supposedly genociding? It's why no one from the US should utter a word about the IDF's actions. We did 1000x WORSE what they did/are doing.

Even if this conflict went another 19 years(adjust time frame US was in the ME with boots on the ground)(obviously still controlling the ME through proxies today but for the sake of argument).

They would have to start an actual genocide to still not even come close to what our military did.

Just think about that 500,000 dead Iraqi men/woman/children and no one made a fucking peep.

Now people care? Give me a break. A major difference in my opinion is the social media apparatus ability to draw an emotional response from people worldwide. When we were carpet bombing Baghdad people weren't posting videos. Now with AI you can take attacks the US did on Iraq and make it look like it's something the IDF did to Gazans TODAY and MILLIONS of people will see that video/share it and HALF will do what people in this thread did. Say something happened that either didn't even happen at all or happened decades ago.

This post was edited by SwamiVivekananda on Oct 22 2024 10:02am
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Oct 22 2024 10:08am
Quote (Many_Names @ Oct 22 2024 08:52am)
This isn’t how things work. By your logic, we could have ended the war from the air, using AI drones to eliminate every Hamas member. If this were a feasible option, we would already be doing it. Sadly, it’s more complicated than that.

We have many ways to potentially speed up the conflict, but fortunately for the people of Gaza, they’re not up against another Arab dictatorship—they’re up against a democracy. That’s why we have boots on the ground.

I’m not claiming that every IDF soldier is perfect, but the orders are clear: avoid civilian casualties.


I respect you as a person even though I believe you are wrong some and ignore what your country actually is... It is a dictatorship that influences America's election to a great degree .. But yeah that person acts like he knows how we felt of the Iraq war "Weapons of mass destruction " was a lie. Hannibal Directive is real in Israel ..They had to bury all those cars shredded by helicopter fire ..And claimed Hamas burnt people alive in cars ... They claimed 50 babies beheaded and many other things that were a lie on oct 7 ... And oct 7 was far from the start of this war..1 can argue it was a long time coming when all other actions for negotiations were ignored to release hostages in Israel. Now Israel uses it as a excuse to bomb every hospital ... Every U.N aide operations ..and much more to speed along a genocide that is obvious to most people..
But like all the Americans signing up to war to go Iraq .. A Act like 9/11 or oct 7 is enough to ignore everything that is wrong with the war you rush into..
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Oct 22 2024 10:21am
Quote (Many_Names @ 22 Oct 2024 10:52)
This isn’t how things work. By your logic, we could have ended the war from the air, using AI drones to eliminate every Hamas member. If this were a feasible option, we would already be doing it. Sadly, it’s more complicated than that.

We have many ways to potentially speed up the conflict, but fortunately for the people of Gaza, they’re not up against another Arab dictatorship—they’re up against a democracy. That’s why we have boots on the ground.

I’m not claiming that every IDF soldier is perfect, but the orders are clear: avoid civilian casualties.


I have no idea what the IDF is doing(no person does)(militaries don't share with the public anything that would undermine their agenda) but I do know what my country has supplied your country with in terms of military application technologies(literally some of if not the most advanced on Earth).

They have the capacity to do everything I've stated but like I've said to you throughout this conflict your COUNTRY and your people have shown RESTRAINT and even went as far as to "supply food/medicine" to the very country you are at "war with". Your country is using 1/10th or maybe even 1/100th what it could do but because the whole world sees your country like many in this thread you are under extreme scrutiny.

The US did NONE of the "nice things" your country has done for the average Gazan. We would've like I said carpet bombed the country, taken all the backlash and criticism of the world KNOWING full well no one could stop us from doing it and also we'd never be held accountable.

Criticism should fall on the US military ALONE or in the majority but you don't see it. Why? Ask any country that talked "bad" on the UN floor of US "policies". Your country is DONE. Decapitated for even challenging the "status quo".

There should be more criticism of US military contractors like Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Booze Allen Hamilton, amongst several others which do business with the IDF(your country is one of our biggest customers).

I own shares of many of these companies and I've made a lot of money since 10/7 and I'm just a regular US citizen with modest money. I know someone who works for Raytheon and made HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of dollars in stock options because right when 10/7 happened every US military contractor surged 15% in a week.

War is big business and we all know that but are the companies that got handed TRILLIONS in tax payer money liable when they give your country BILLIONS in military assets? They should be but they never are. Just like banks funding both sides of wars. Never held accountable.

How Americans still can't see this or just "close their eyes and pretend it's not happening is beyond me".

I have family and friends who work for our military or contractors they don't value Israeli or Gazan life they care about the MONEY they are making and that's it.

How could it not be any more clear when the US invaded the ME over reasons we all now know aren't true or were perverted. My two good high school friends served multiple tours in Iraq/Afghanistan and guess what they told me. The Afghan people were nice and kind. The Iraqi people were nice and kind. We weren't bringing them democracy we were stealing their oil and guarding "opium fields". My friends saw basically NO TERRORIST and were just occupying these countries and building bases while stealing the resources our country needs. Oil for our war machine and Opium for big pharma.

One of them has PTSD as he was in a Humvee that was hit by an IED. When he went to fight against the "terrorist" at 20 years old he could never imagine the real reasons we were there and he lived to see it all.

This post was edited by SwamiVivekananda on Oct 22 2024 10:29am
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Oct 22 2024 10:48am
Quote (doomchaser @ 22 Oct 2024 11:08)
I respect you as a person even though I believe you are wrong some and ignore what your country actually is... It is a dictatorship that influences America's election to a great degree .. But yeah that person acts like he knows how we felt of the Iraq war "Weapons of mass destruction " was a lie. Hannibal Directive is real in Israel ..They had to bury all those cars shredded by helicopter fire ..And claimed Hamas burnt people alive in cars ... They claimed 50 babies beheaded and many other things that were a lie on oct 7 ... And oct 7 was far from the start of this war..1 can argue it was a long time coming when all other actions for negotiations were ignored to release hostages in Israel. Now Israel uses it as a excuse to bomb every hospital ... Every U.N aide operations ..and much more to speed along a genocide that is obvious to most people..
But like all the Americans signing up to war to go Iraq .. A Act like 9/11 or oct 7 is enough to ignore everything that is wrong with the war you rush into..


This is the root of that "causality" and you are definitely right to a certain extent. The thing is we as citizens in the US have "NO CHOICE" when it comes to armed conflicts anywhere in the world and it's because "war is our biggest business". We as citizens like any citizens anywhere on Earth NEVER want to see an armed conflict. Never want to see innocent people slaughtered but none the less it happens. You can vote "Red or Blue" every 4 years(which is a joke and why I don't vote) because the politicians in Washington are OWNED by the big lobbyist. Ultimate conflict of interest.

The US military/government NEVER asks citizens for permission. It simply ACTS.

Our military has conducted over 2,000 open-air biological experiments on it's own citizens to PERFECT it's military technology. It doesn't care about US and it sure as fuck doesn't care about other countries.

Imagine the military says, 'Hey we're going to test a nuclear weapon 50 miles from your house' does it ask the citizens if their "cool with it"? Fuck no they just do it.

Imagine the military says, 'Hey we're going to release a bio-virus made in a lab on your city. They just do it. Why?

Our military is the most powerful on Earth and we use other countries(Israel) to test these technologies plain and simple.

Why should you as a citizen "care" when your own government "doesn't care" and there isn't a thing you can do about it?

Free-will? Morality? Out-the-window.

In order for their to be peace on the US mainland we have to make war with the rest of the world on every conceivable level. The average US citizen doesn't get the reason they can live in total safety/first world privilege "cost" is "hell on Earth" for our enemies..who are actually for the most part just "regular folks" like you and me...

This post was edited by SwamiVivekananda on Oct 22 2024 10:50am
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Oct 22 2024 10:57am
The senior defense official who leaked the Israeli attack options on Iran to the Iranians has possibly been identified
Ariane Tabatabai is an Iranian-American NATO consultant who has been writing Iranian sympathizing foreign policy pieces for years and was given a position in the Biden administration and Austin's defense department in US naval intelligence where she met regularly with the Iranian Foreign Ministry for nuclear negotiations, and was given access to secret documents despite the fact she's already been connected to the Iran Experts Initiative propaganda effort

Here's the thing, Sky News Arabia is identifying her as the leaker and that's KSA / Qatari controlled media , and they obviously have a pre-existing reason to hate her. I mean its owned by Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed Al Nahyan
But at the same time, US based journalists are claiming Tabatabai is still working at the pentagon and still has her security clearance and has not been contacted by investigators

They could both be true. Maybe the FBI suspects its her and hasn't moved in yet, but the KSA was able to know it first from their spies in the US government :rofl:
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Oct 22 2024 11:07am
Quote (SwamiVivekananda @ Oct 22 2024 09:48am)


Our military has conducted over 2,000 open-air biological experiments on it's own citizens to PERFECT it's military technology. It doesn't care about US and it sure as fuck doesn't care about other countries.


do you have any proof of this? or is it another "just trust me bro" moment?
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Oct 22 2024 11:23am
Quote (gnarjay @ 22 Oct 2024 12:07)
do you have any proof of this? or is it another "just trust me bro" moment?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States
https://mronline.org/2023/06/24/dark-history-how-the-u-s-experimented-on-its-own-people/

Have fun bud.

We are all lab rats people just refuse to believe what our government has done and continues to do.

The number 2,000 is conservative. That's the admitted ones. I'm sure there's thousands of other instances and I'm not as naïve as my fellow Americans who seem to believe our government has our "best interest in mind" despite troves of evidence to the contrary.

US military tests on it's own citizens FIRST because it'd be considered a war crime to do it elsewhere but that's not to say we can't FUND RESEARCH in a place like Wuhan, China and avoid accountability testing in places that have even lower moral/ethical standards for their own citizens.

Here's fun from Israel

Netanyahu saying things like the Jewish state "could serve as a world laboratory for herd immunity" because of its "efficient distribution system."

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/1611761409-netanyahu-israel-can-serve-as-a-global-test-case-for-vaccine-efficacy

"It's all safe and effective!" Here stick out your arm and let us pluck you with vaccines to "see what happens".

Once again I will reiterate to you how the Covid vaccine were "Warpspeeded" through proper scientific testing(short and long term) and someone like you who hates Trump with a passion still went to Walmart/CVS and took the jab.

You said I don't support science but that in it of itself is contrary to all known science.

It's why Pfizer who Netanyahu fawned over at Davos doesn't have to release it's "data" until 2076

https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/wait-what-fda-wants-55-years-process-foia-request-over-vaccine-data-2021-11-18/

This post was edited by SwamiVivekananda on Oct 22 2024 11:36am
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Oct 22 2024 11:30am
Quote (SwamiVivekananda @ Oct 22 2024 10:23am)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States
https://mronline.org/2023/06/24/dark-history-how-the-u-s-experimented-on-its-own-people/

Have fun bud.

We are all lab rats people just refuse to believe what our government has done and continues to do.

The number 2,000 is conservative. That's the admitted ones. I'm sure there's thousands of other instances and I'm not as naïve as my fellow Americans who seem to believe our government has our "best interest in mind" despite troves of evidence to the contrary.


2,000 is an overstatement by about 1700 from what I can find
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