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Mar 18 2020 10:10am


Thousands of Muslim pilgrims ignore virus risk to gather in Indonesia

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-indonesia-event/thousands-of-muslim-pilgrims-brave-coronavirus-to-gather-in-indonesia-idUSKBN2151RI

Quote
JAKARTA/KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - Thousands of Muslim pilgrims from across Asia gathered in Indonesia on Wednesday, despite fears that their meeting could fuel the spread of a coronavirus, just two weeks after a similar event in Malaysia caused more than 500 infections.

Organisers and regional officials said the event in the world’s fourth most populous nation had begun, although the regional police chief said he was making a last ditch-effort to persuade organisers to call it off.

“We are more afraid of God,” one of the organisers, Mustari Bahranuddin, told Reuters, when asked about the risk of participants spreading the virus at the event in Gowa in Indonesia’s province of South Sulawesi.

“Because everyone’s human, we fear illnesses, death,” he said. “But there’s something more to the body, which is our soul.”

Organisers had rejected a formal request from authorities to postpone the gathering, said a regional official, Arifuddin Saeni.

He estimated that 8,695 people had already assembled in Gowa, near the provincial city of Makassar, adding that the numbers would make it hard to put a halt to the proceedings.




Gotta say...the muslims are pretty fucked up. ^^
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Mar 18 2020 10:14am
Quote (Ghot @ Mar 18 2020 05:10pm)
Thousands of Muslim pilgrims ignore virus risk to gather in Indonesia

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-indonesia-event/thousands-of-muslim-pilgrims-brave-coronavirus-to-gather-in-indonesia-idUSKBN2151RI





Gotta say...the muslims are pretty fucked up. ^^


Can't ignore Allah, that would be even worse for your health
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Mar 18 2020 10:15am
Quote (zarkadon @ Mar 18 2020 11:55am)
Yeah, time will tell, and shit storms will arise in countries that went down whichever path proves worse.



Lockdown in China is much more effective than in Europe. In Wuhan, people were not allowed to leave their homes under any circumstances, and food was being delivered to them. In Spain, Italy, etc, people are going to the supermarket, bank and so on, and public transportation is still functioning as some people are still allowed to work. Plus there are people who still break curfew, while in China nobody would dare do that.

On another note, I think people are mistaken when they think that those accepting the risk of letting avoidable deaths happen are cold, monstrous or lack solidarity. These people fear the impact the economic consequences will have on the population... job losses, budget cuts, evictions, etc. and they believe this will cause a greater suffering to the overall population, than the deaths of a small percentage of people who in many cases don't have much time left anyway.

Our culture is generally skewed in favour of Kantist morality, but that doesn't mean utilitarianism is immoral. It's essentially driven by the same impulses of solidarity and wanting the betterment of people's well being... it's just the approach on how to reach that good that makes them at odds with each other. Both utilitarian and kantist morality pursue good.

Consider this thought experiment:

Imagine a deity descended to Earth and told humans that it could get rid of cancer forever, making our species immune to it... however, if we chose to accept this gift, we will forever be banned from using internet. Would it be immoral to "let millions of people die" while we try and find a cure for ourselves, or should we accept the gift and get rid of cancer forever... at the expense of losing the internet, and seeing our whole social and economic system collapse, leading to much more suffering and deaths of other kind?

I think we would likely all accept the deaths from cancer in this case.

And I know this thought experiment is exaggerated, but I just wanted to show that the reasoning behind it isn't inherently immoral.


I mentioned this before but didn't really go into too much depth. If we think about it, advancement in technology, medicine, dietetics, lifting whole continents out of poverty, etc. has resulted in almost across the board increases in life expediencies. For 99% of history people weren't really expected to live into their 80s or 90s but today it's increasingly becoming the norm as those advances continue.

To me the issue is, as a society, assuming this trend continues and 90s are the new 80s and so on do we as society make the higher life expectancy our baseline and say if this population is affected we will shut down society to prevent it? I mean 50 years ago life expectancy was under 70 and if the covid-19 arose back then, people wouldn't be freaking out considering the death rate is not overwhelmingly higher compared to the flu under 70. Plus the fact that the world wasn't so globalized and interconnected as it is today.

I know it sounds cold, but to me in a way this is natures way of self regulating. We want to be gods and be in control over so many different things but this is just a reminder that no matter what we can't control and minimize all exogenous risks.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Mar 18 2020 10:17am
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Mar 18 2020 10:20am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Mar 18 2020 08:52am)
10% would be affected in any meaningful way and realistically 1% would die not 10.

I wonder if In 100 years because of various advances in science life expectancies go to 100 are we going to find it unacceptable for people to die naturally.


If your mom or dad died, would you be affected?
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Mar 18 2020 10:22am
Quote (Santara @ Mar 18 2020 05:20pm)
If your mom or dad died, would you be affected?


This
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Mar 18 2020 10:25am
Quote (Santara @ Mar 18 2020 12:20pm)
If your mom or dad died, would you be affected?


I would.

My dad died of liver and kidney failure due to alcoholism. By your logic should we ban or heavily regulate this as well considering alcohol is magnitudes worse as a killer than this virus? How about cars? Should we all stop driving because car accidents are a huge reason many people die?

You see my point? At some point, we forego safety and take on some risks because it's part and parcel of what life is.
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Mar 18 2020 10:29am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Mar 18 2020 11:25am)
I would.

My dad died of liver and kidney failure due to alcoholism. By your logic should we ban or heavily regulate this as well considering alcohol is magnitudes worse as a killer than this virus? How about cars? Should we all stop driving because car accidents are a huge reason many people die?

You see my point? At some point, we forego safety and take on some risks because it's part and parcel of what life is.


yes, plz. we should all live the amish way and raise and farm our own food with minimal contact with others and no electricity. ive been training for that my whole life.
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Mar 18 2020 10:33am
Quote (zarkadon @ 18 Mar 2020 16:55)
Yeah, time will tell, and shit storms will arise in countries that went down whichever path proves worse.



Lockdown in China is much more effective than in Europe. In Wuhan, people were not allowed to leave their homes under any circumstances, and food was being delivered to them. In Spain, Italy, etc, people are going to the supermarket, bank and so on, and public transportation is still functioning as some people are still allowed to work. Plus there are people who still break curfew, while in China nobody would dare do that.

On another note, I think people are mistaken when they think that those accepting the risk of letting avoidable deaths happen are cold, monstrous or lack solidarity. These people fear the impact the economic consequences will have on the population... job losses, budget cuts, evictions, etc. and they believe this will cause a greater suffering to the overall population, than the deaths of a small percentage of people who in many cases don't have much time left anyway.

Our culture is generally skewed in favour of Kantist morality, but that doesn't mean utilitarianism is immoral. It's essentially driven by the same impulses of solidarity and wanting the betterment of people's well being... it's just the approach on how to reach that good that makes them at odds with each other. Both utilitarian and kantist morality pursue good.

Consider this thought experiment:

Imagine a deity descended to Earth and told humans that it could get rid of cancer forever, making our species immune to it... however, if we chose to accept this gift, we will forever be banned from using internet. Would it be immoral to "let millions of people die" while we try and find a cure for ourselves, or should we accept the gift and get rid of cancer forever... at the expense of losing the internet, and seeing our whole social and economic system collapse, leading to much more suffering and deaths of other kind?

I think we would likely all accept the deaths from cancer in this case.

And I know this thought experiment is exaggerated, but I just wanted to show that the reasoning behind it isn't inherently immoral.


- I was talking about ITALY: 3 weeks after the lockdown there's almost no new case. It's the first area which was locked. Yes it was 3 weeks ago.
- Must have a serious Bias to start to believe China numbers. Even the deads ones.
- Once again you are advocating about pseudo recession argumentation and job loss, which concerns only a small part of workers BTW. Giving it priority to over LIFE.
- And now you are about to say that the 2% deserve to sacrify themselve, that could be considered as acceptable.

Seems like you are a part of these people who show no empathy, and are only changing their mind when they are directly concerned by the problem.

Quote (ofthevoid @ 18 Mar 2020 17:25)
I would.

My dad died of liver and kidney failure due to alcoholism. By your logic should we ban or heavily regulate this as well considering alcohol is magnitudes worse as a killer than this virus? How about cars? Should we all stop driving because car accidents are a huge reason many people die?

You see my point? At some point, we forego safety and take on some risks because it's part and parcel of what life is.



Such an amazing shortcut. Congratulation, you just let your father die a second time.


This post was edited by Saucisson6000 on Mar 18 2020 10:40am
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Mar 18 2020 10:38am
Quote (thesnipa @ Mar 18 2020 12:29pm)
yes, plz. we should all live the amish way and raise and farm our own food with minimal contact with others and no electricity. ive been training for that my whole life.


In the US:

Quote

Nearly 1.25 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day. An additional 20-50 million are injured or disabled. More than half of all road traffic deaths occur among young adults ages 15-44.


Covid deaths so far since late December ~7500, which is 2 days of driving in the US fatalities. Let's say that death number is 10x and it's 750,000 in the US and we stop all society, yet the 1.25 million + tens of millions injured is an acceptable risk from cars? And the simple fact that those dying from covid are already close to the death meanwhile the 1.2 mil is young people who have their whole life ahead of them yet i don't see anyone rushing to stop all driving even though by any metric it's way more deadlier.


I feel like people are losing their minds.
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Mar 18 2020 10:48am
Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Mar 18 2020 12:33pm)
- I was talking about ITALY: 3 weeks after the lockdown there's almost no new case. It's the first area which was locked. Yes it was 3 weeks ago.
- Must have a serious Bias to start to believe China numbers. Even the deads ones.
- Once again you are advocating about pseudo recession argumentation and job loss, which concerns only a small part of workers BTW. Giving it priority to over LIFE.
- And now you are about to say that the 2% deserve to sacrify themselve, that could be considered as acceptable.

Seems like you are a part of these people who show no empathy, and are only changing their mind when they are directly concerned by the problem.




Such an amazing shortcut. Congratulation, you just let your father die a second time.


Italy hasn't finished this wave and the virus hasn't mutated yet either.

They've had a many people die as are cured, and most people are in purgatory.
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