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Sep 12 2021 01:58pm
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Sep 12 2021 12:56pm)
Yes, if it is a means of production. Land is a means of production. Tools are a means of production. Vehicles are a means of production. Raw products, such as iron/steel, lumber, etc. are a means of production. The only things really excluded are end products. And part of the reason for food rationing that starves millions is because to an extent, food itself is a means of production as well. Tomatoes have seeds, which can be used to grow new Tomatoes. Grains are seeds, which can be used to grow more grains. Thus, even end products like many types of food cannot be privately owned.

What Engles and Marx were indicating in the final line of the quote: "Do you mean the property of petty artisan and of the small peasant, a form of property that preceded the bourgeois form? There is no need to abolish that." was that the peasant and petty artisan did not own any form of capital. Peasants did not own the land, they did not own the tools, they did not own the raw products that are needed to produce the end product. The means of generating end products, aka capital, were all already in the hands of the "bourgeois".


And what do you call property that is not entwined as means of production?
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Sep 12 2021 02:01pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ 12 Sep 2021 12:58)
And what do you call property that is not entwined as means of production?


End product. That end product is mostly in the form of consumables, textiles, literature, art, etc. Once again, all land, all tools, and all vehicles are means of production. As are most crop animals, which themselves require land to grow.

So under the Communist view of the world, the only thing you can truly own is end product that cannot be used to produce other end products. But if you don't own the means to produce your own food, how do you get food? If you don't own the means to produce clothing, or art, how do you gain ownership of these things? Answer: They're rationed to you by the representatives of "the people" AKA the government. And what if you attempt to steal the means of production, or attempt to take more end product than you're rationed? The the "representatives of the people" aka the government sends people out to take it back, and disciplines you for your action. Such discipline usually involves a bullet to the skull. Once again, there's a reason why, once you remove ownership of all means of production from the people, the government always turns into a dictatorship.

This post was edited by InsaneBobb on Sep 12 2021 02:04pm
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Sep 12 2021 02:02pm
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Sep 12 2021 01:01pm)
End product. That end product is mostly in the form of consumables, textiles, literature, art, etc. Once again, all land, all tools, and all vehicles are means of production. As are most crop animals, which themselves require land to grow.


And what do you call it when someone has end product(s) in their possession?
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Sep 12 2021 02:03pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ Sep 12 2021 01:02pm)
And what do you call it when someone has end product(s) in their possession?


A consumer?

Just a wild guess. I don't think that you can say someone is a "property-owner" just because he has a loaf of bread and a jug of milk.
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Sep 12 2021 02:04pm
Quote (JessiWan @ Sep 12 2021 01:03pm)
A consumer?

Just a wild guess. I don't think that you can say someone is a "property-owner" just because he has a loaf of bread and a jug of milk.


The question is: What do you call the bread and jug of milk in their possession?
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Sep 12 2021 02:06pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ 12 Sep 2021 13:02)
And what do you call it when someone has end product(s) in their possession?


A consumer. And because they are consuming the end product of "the people's" means of production, they must work those means to earn that which they're consuming. Hence compulsory labor.

Quote (Handcuffs @ 12 Sep 2021 13:04)
The question is: What do you call the bread and jug of milk in their possession?


Consumables. If you consider yourself a "property owner" because you have a jug of milk and loaf of bread rationed to you, I don't know what to tell you.

This post was edited by InsaneBobb on Sep 12 2021 02:08pm
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Sep 12 2021 02:07pm
Quote (JessiWan @ Sep 12 2021 12:38pm)
You can't just say someone is wrong. You need to say why he is wrong, and to prove that he is wrong.
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Read Marx. That prooves it.
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Sep 12 2021 02:08pm
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Sep 12 2021 01:06pm)
A consumer. And because they are consuming the end product of "the people's" means of production, they must work those means to earn that which they're consuming. Hence compulsory labor.


But what kind of property are the end product(s)?
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Sep 12 2021 02:11pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ Sep 12 2021 01:04pm)
The question is: What do you call the bread and jug of milk in their possession?


Consumables, or end products.

I think what you are desperately trying to do is "prove" that someone is a "property-owner" just because he owns bread and milk. Newsflash: that is not what most normal people mean when they say "property-owner".

You think you are achieving something by asking these questions in this way though.
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Sep 12 2021 02:13pm
Quote (JessiWan @ Sep 12 2021 01:11pm)
Consumables, or end products.

I think what you are desperately trying to do is "prove" that someone is a "property-owner" just because he owns bread and milk. Newsflash: that is not what most normal people mean when they say "property-owner".

You think you are achieving something by asking these questions in this way though.


So "consumables" are a form of property that is different than private property?
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