Quote (RedFromWinter @ May 26 2021 12:46pm)

Fed devaluing currency is the greater theft.

Quote (addone @ May 27 2021 12:16am)

Ask yourself what a private contractor cant do that which the government can. Then write that list up and that's your definition of a government needed

taxes are essentially forced money handover for services that you may or may not agree with

Quote (Handcuffs @ May 26 2021 07:04pm)

I appreciate your reply, took some time to think, and have only now returned with some thoughts.

I think libertarianism, for me, sounds like idealism due to the emphasis placed on voluntary action. Perhaps this is the result of my own cynicism, pessimism, or ignorance, but I don't believe humans have shown themselves to be presently inclined to voluntary action that supports a society at-scale. That doesn't, therefore, mean that it's an impossibility. It just means that I am not as convinced yet as some libertarians may be that voluntary action will manifest so easily out of human benevolence.

While I agree with you that the USD has no objective, inherent value, I do think that subjective value and the apparatus that the State currently provides is a critical piece for the economics to even exist. It is why that, even though others may view this as illogical, I view the hypothetical of being taxed 10% on $100 as being +$90 in the end, rather than -$10. I suppose the key difference here is whether the taxation feels "just" or not. Personally, I much prefer the language of "just" v. "theft" because it opens up the conversation a lot more. Perhaps for those who view taxation = theft, any amount of taxation is seen as unjust? If that's the case, I find that position easier to engage with, and less likely to devolve into a debate over semantics, which I often feel this discussion typically results in--both here in PaRD, and in real life.

Quote (Handcuffs @ May 26 2021 08:04pm)

I appreciate your reply, took some time to think, and have only now returned with some thoughts.

I think libertarianism, for me, sounds like idealism due to the emphasis placed on voluntary action. Perhaps this is the result of my own cynicism, pessimism, or ignorance, but I don't believe humans have shown themselves to be presently inclined to voluntary action that supports a society at-scale. That doesn't, therefore, mean that it's an impossibility. It just means that I am not as convinced yet as some libertarians may be that voluntary action will manifest so easily out of human benevolence.

While I agree with you that the USD has no objective, inherent value, I do think that subjective value and the apparatus that the State currently provides is a critical piece for the economics to even exist. It is why that, even though others may view this as illogical, I view the hypothetical of being taxed 10% on $100 as being +$90 in the end, rather than -$10. I suppose the key difference here is whether the taxation feels "just" or not. Personally, I much prefer the language of "just" v. "theft" because it opens up the conversation a lot more. Perhaps for those who view taxation = theft, any amount of taxation is seen as unjust? If that's the case, I find that position easier to engage with, and less likely to devolve into a debate over semantics, which I often feel this discussion typically results in--both here in PaRD, and in real life.

Quote (cambovenzi @ May 27 2021 08:27pm)

The overwhelming majority of people already act in a libertarian manner in their day to day lives. They don't run around killing and stealing from people. The ones who do are criminals and are already looked down upon by virtually everyone.
Libertarianism is not an assumption that everyone will act benevolently. You wouldn't look at a prohibition on murder and say 'wow how unrealistic, they expect no one will be murdered!'.
There is nothing inherently wrong or unrealistic about pursuing an ideal or recognizing that something is wrong.

The +90% still doesn't really make sense. Wealth doesn't come from the government. It is being taxed away. In the absence of income taxation you would have 100%. The taxation makes you less well off.

Some people 'feeling' its just to steal from people doesn't make it just, nor does it change the fact that income is being taxed away from people.

Taxation is the government taking people's possessions and income using threats and acts of violence. Yes its theft and theft is unjust.

I wont claim to speak for everyone else on the last part. Some people, even libertarians, are ok with minimal taxation and a minarchist state but recognize that taxation is theft.
Plaguefear recognized its theft but he loves it anyways because he is unwilling to consider or accurately represent libertarian alternatives.

Quote (Thor123422 @ May 27 2021 09:38pm)

It's easy to think of examples of theft being just.

A starving parent stealing bread to feed their child because of circumstances beyond their control. Technically, by your definition, all land grabs from the king were theft. The kings owned everything after all, and were put under duress to relinquish their land and titles.

Simply saying "theft is unjust" is something that most people grow out of before they are teenagers.

In reality, it's just as much a feeling that theft is unjust as it is that it is just. Justice is opinion.

Quote (cambovenzi @ May 27 2021 08:39pm)

Immature posturing from the inferior loser.

Quote (Thor123422 @ May 27 2021 09:38pm)

It's easy to think of examples of theft being just.

A starving parent stealing bread to feed their child because of circumstances beyond their control. Technically, by your definition, all land grabs from the king were theft. The kings owned everything after all, and were put under duress to relinquish their land and titles.

Simply saying "theft is unjust" is something that most people grow out of before they are teenagers.

In reality, it's just as much a feeling that theft is unjust as it is that it is just. Justice is opinion.