Quote (thesnipa @ Jul 17 2020 12:34pm)

let's wait and see isn't an argument, its delaying an argument lol. we can wait and see if studies come out that black people are predisposed to violence, or wait to see studies on white people being worse at swimming, or w/e. nor does it address silencing around studies perceived as anti trans. nor does it address parent's rights being superseded by something that doesnt reduce harm, simply reduces risk, according to studies with an agenda.

but lol at the last part, kids are still gonna make fun of gay kids and trans kids 50 years from now. come on, we both know that. we're talking puberty blockers here, not something for college age kids, which also get mocked for being gay/trans now despite it being the "default".

Quote (Goomshill @ Jul 17 2020 01:07pm)

They want to make it an 'informed consent' issue to avoid talking about how inherently wrong it is to torture children based off some wild social/political theory dressed up under the pretenses of medical science. As if they're the first generation of social crusaders to ever have this hubris and they'll get it right this time. Hedging posts to avoid saying that using gender transition as a treatment for ODD is wrong even if the DMS-V and leading experts say it has no basis- because in a few years, it very well might be the new "accepted" standard, at least in Californian groupthink. All it takes is a few intrepid scientists willing to push boundaries and conduct social experiments and they can pave the way, even if they're paving over a few mutilated children.

We long since left behind the concepts of bodily integrity and natural development being sacrosanct and have no qualms about selectively editing the hippocratic oath. Now "consent" is just a minor bump in the road to be trod over by saying the will of a child and parents don't matter, its up to government authorities to make determinations what is best for your body. And Thor wants to see the results from the Mengele experiments to determine whether forcibly feminizing a pubescent boy with gender transition drugs is an effective way to turn rebelliousness and defiance into meekness and compliance.

Quote (Thor123422 @ Jul 17 2020 01:15pm)

When your "hot take" is a 10 year later claim there's nothing we can do but "wait and see". We would also need to "wait and see" the effects of changing environment and being able to transition before it would be justified to take kids from their parents.

The rest of this post is a straw-man that you've nicely beaten to death.

Quote (thesnipa @ Jul 17 2020 01:20pm)

im making predictions about the future based on current trajectory and history, you're refusing to an eluding to us not being able to predict. its 10 years, no 2000.

as to the strawman, its me having a one sided conversation with logical inferences because you neglected to make them. you're the one who brought up 90% reduction in suicide rates due to future puberty blocker studies, a very specific claim. not a claim that it will happen, but that it could. im arguing against that it could happen, as thats all u gave me.

but we're skirting the real issue, i respect parent's rights more than you and am far less utilitarian. im also far more skeptical of trans research studies generally. so its not like we can agree no matter what either of us say.

Quote (Thor123422 @ Jul 17 2020 01:33pm)

My position is simply "let's wait for the research, because just claiming that it will be bad wrong because it is dependent on the outcome", which is how all medical research is done and it only becomes an issue when the right gets triggered. The discussion of the right course of treatment for trans kids will likely be more nuanced than "99% reduction in suicide, so let's take all the kids", and will ultimately be left up to professionals in the field who are actually familiar with all the issues. It's how we've made progress on every other medical issue, but for some reason the right gets their panties in a twist and that mechanism is no longer adequate.

You're doing something I see a lot on gay and trans issues, JAQing (Just-Asking-Questions) off. "Hey man, I'm no expert in the literature, I'm just asking questions!". You're not actually trying to be productive, you're trying to cast doubt on the literature without actually understanding it.

Quote (thesnipa @ Jul 17 2020 01:38pm)

no, you seem confused. i am unilaterally against taking kids from parents for situations like puberty blockers, regardless of what the research says. period, that's my stance.

i was just playing along with what research could say for your sake, because my actual stance is far less productive. i have that stance on parent's rights, and it wont change. the research could, so at least that was a topic we could go forward with. i just hit a brick wall a few steps behind my own, is all.

Quote (Thor123422 @ Jul 17 2020 01:41pm)

Okay, you can have that stance but that's a pretty dumb stance and won't be respected in a professional field where the focus is on outcomes.

Doctors have to look out for their patients, so if the literature shows a significant and overwhelming benefit it would require them to take drastic measures where appropriate.

Quote (thesnipa @ Jul 17 2020 01:46pm)

if i respected outcomes over my own moral gut feeling i'd be a utilitarian. and thats why doctors dont write laws, because outcomes aren't going to respect the constitution. best for patients would always lead to utilitarian violations. ban cigarettes, ban soda, hysterectomies at a set age past child rearing to avoid ovarian cancers, etc. pass on that.

Quote (thesnipa @ Jul 17 2020 09:36am)

hot take: i give it 10 years before a child is removed from their parents, in the USA, for the parents refusing puberty blockers.

Quote (Handcuffs @ Jul 17 2020 02:05pm)

I don't think this will ever happen, and disagree with Thor's take that there's the potential that outcome data would ever justify considering it.

If there were a SJW path forward, it would far more likely be the case that advocates would strive to lower medical age-of-consent laws for hormone therapy as opposed to attempting to penalize the 'denial' of puberty blockers. The foster care system is already struggling as-is, and removing a child from the home is (I think) more difficult than some might assume.