You want to know why the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is called that? Because it was formerly part of Yugoslavia, as Macedonian is a South Slavic language (Yugoslav means "South Slav"). That means they were already part of a South Slavic nation-state (which was formed voluntarily), and before that part of the Ottoman Empire. The Greeks never tried to take over Slavic Macedonian sovereignty.



Clearly not, since you also did not know that the Macedonians are also a subgroup of ethnic Greeks.



How am I "be[ing] slippery"? By appealing to facts?



No, the UN Human Rights Watch is saying that racism against Slavic Macedonians exists in Greece, with which I agree. You are saying that the Macedonians are a "specific ethnic group" and that because the Greeks have sovereignty over a region called Macedonia, they are intruding on Macedonian sovereignty and committing "ethnic genocide." Your arguments are clearly false, since a region called Macedonia currently is and has historically been Greek.



First of all, you are not saying the same things they are. Second of all, they would not have forgotten that the Slavic Macedonians already have a sovereign state, like you did. That is quite an important issue, you know.



They consider themselves Macedonian, and many sources refer to them as Greek Macedonians, so why can I not call them that? The specific group of Slavic-speakers in Greek Macedonia already have a sovereign nation-state in Macedonia. They are just a minority in Greek Macedonia. Of course, that does not mean racism against them should exist, but you were talking about history, language, self-determination, and "cultural genocide," not racism.


You seem to have two major issues: believing that two things with the same name must be somehow the same and looking at historical events from a modern perspective. The Greek Macedonians and the Slavic Macedonians are no more the same than the Indians in India and the American Indians. Second, before 1648 and the Peace of Westphalia, the concept of the nation-state did not exist. Many different polities speaking the same language and sharing the same culture existed, such as the different German states or Italian republics. In Ancient Greece, many politically distinct city-states existed, Macedon being one of them. Nowadays we associate Greece and Greek culture with the culture of Athens or Sparta, and since Macedon conquered Athens and Sparta, one might be tempted to think that Macedon is not Greek. But Qin conquered all of the other Chinese states, yet Qin is where the name "China" comes from. Macedon was as Greek as Qin was Chinese. Thus the Ancient Macedonians and the modern Greek Macedonians are Greek, and the Slavic Macedonians have national self-determination in the Republic of Macedonia, a completely distinct entity.

What do you not understand about that? Why do you try to assail the impregnable fortress of historical facts with weapons you think will just materialize from the fickle air?

This post was edited by Inviction on May 15 2010 05:35pm

You're such a condescending dickhead. I made a mistake because I had mainly studied the period of the Greek Civil War, prior to the formation of FYROM, and you can't move past that far enough to actually have a worthwhile discussion.

I never said that the Greeks 'took over' Slavic Macedonian sovereignty, so stop putting words in my mouth. I said that they blocked ethnic Macedonians in Greece from having a state during the Greek Civil War. Do you know what I said that? Because it is true.

I am aware that there are Greeks who refer to themselves as Macedonians. However, they were clearly not who I was referring to - nor who Human Rights Watch were referring to - when they spoke of "Aegean Macedonians." Bringing an irrelevant group into the mix was strictly factual, but is a slippery way of muddying the waters and reinforcing your completely undeserved condescension.

Aegean Macedonians are a specific ethnic group in Greece which face institutional racism which attempts to deprive them of their culture. I do not feel that it is at all overstating the case to say that attempting to completely erase a culture is cultural genocide. Your dodge about "Ethnic Genocide" is another ignorant strawman that completely dodges my point and puts words in my mouth.

As I said already - I studied the region mostly during the Greek Civil War and only touched lightly on the modern issues, and did so about two years ago. You can keep harping on about a single mistake I made, but between that and all of your straw men, it's starting to make it look like it's just your way of making up for not understanding what I'm saying.

When I talked about history and self-determination, I was speaking of their attempts to create a state in the shadow of the Greek Civil War. When I speak of cultural genocide, I am talking about systematic racism that attempts to destroy a culture so that it no longer exists. Period. Reread this last paragraph a few times until you realize that you've done nothing but harp on a mistake I made and failed to understand what I'm saying.



I never once tried to draw a straight line between modern Aegean Macedonians and ancient Macedon, other than making a single comment in my original paper wherein I said that they felt a cultural connection to Alexander. This entire paragraph is completely irrelevant to our discussion.

This post was edited by AiNedeSpelCzech on May 15 2010 05:48pm

easy - if you don't understand what history is about (but don't worry you are not alone, there is plenty good company for you here on pard

In before an Inviction novel.

Temper, temper.



That is because we are discussing Macedonia.



That is because the ethnic Macedonians already have a state in Macedonia.



No, you are changing your words. Let me remind me what you stated, since you seem to have forgotten that in addition to Macedonia:







Santara stated Alexander was Macedonian, narcisso stated that he is Greek Macedonian and was from Greek Macedonia, and finally you stated "Macedonia is part of Greece because Greeks whooped their asses and kept them from their right to self-determination as a separate state," clearly in response to narcisso's statement that Alexander was Macedonian and Greek. Your statement was wrong on two levels: the Slavic Macedonians, to whom you now claim you were referring, already have their own state, whereas the Greek Macedonians, to whom you were actually referring since you were responding to a post that had to do with Alexander being Greek, have always been Greek.



First, racism is unjust everywhere. Second, racism against Slavic Macedonians in Greece, ethnic Macedonians in Greece, Slavic-speakers in Greek Macedonia, Slavophone Greeks, or Aegean Macedonians--however you wish to refer to them-- is not what you were talking about. You were arguing about the sovereignty of the ethnic (Slavic) Macedonians as a "specific ethnic group," which already exists. Why should the ethnic Macedonians in Greece get their own state in addition to Macedonia?



How did I dodge?

As I said already - I studied the region mostly during the Greek Civil War and only touched lightly on the modern issues, and did so about two years ago. You can keep harping on about a single mistake I made, but between that and all of your straw men, it's starting to make it look like it's just your way of making up for not understanding what I'm saying.

I understand perfectly what you are saying. That is why I disagree with you, for you are incorrect and possibly confused.

When I talked about history and self-determination, I was speaking of their attempts to create a state in the shadow of the Greek Civil War.

But the place where they lived--Greek Macedonia--was more populated by Greek Macedonians than by Slavic Macedonians. And furthermore, Yugoslavia already existed.

When I speak of cultural genocide, I am talking about systematic racism that attempts to destroy a culture so that it no longer exists.

The Greeks are not doing that because the Slavic Macedonian culture would still exist in Macedonia.

Period. Reread this last paragraph a few times until you realize that you've done nothing but harp on a mistake I made and failed to understand what I'm saying.

What you are saying is incorrect, since the Slavic Macedonians already have national self-determination and Greek Macedonia is mainly Greek and Greek Macedonians are full Greek.

I never once tried to draw a straight line between modern Aegean Macedonians and ancient Macedon, other than making a single comment in my original paper wherein I said that they felt a cultural connection to Alexander. This entire paragraph is completely irrelevant to our discussion.[/B]

Just to let you know, the term "Aegean Macedonia" itself is biased. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Macedonia

"The origins of the term seem to be rooted in the mid 1940s but its modern usage is considered[by whom?] both ambiguous and irredentist. The term has occasionally appeared on maps circulated in the Republic of Macedonia, which envisioned Greek Macedonia (referred to as "Aegean Macedonia") as part of a "Greater Macedonia", and is regarded as a non-recognition of current European borders, including the legitimacy of Greek sovereignty over the area.[1]

During the Greek Civil War, the Greek government referred to the usage as a "new term" only recently introduced by Josip Broz Tito in Yugoslavia,[2] implying that it considered it part of the Yugoslav campaign of laying claim to Greek Macedonia."

If you look at things from the perspective of a Slavic Macedonian irredentist, then obviously Greek Macedonia ought to be Slavic Macedonia. But while such Slavic Macedonian ultra-nationalists did exist and are a valid subject of historical study, that does not mean their historical views are correct. It would be like writing an essay using only sources from the German side of World War I. Sure, these sources are not invalid sources, but their claims are going to be historically inaccurate.

Also, just because you are wrong does not mean others fail to understand you or that the truth is somehow elitist or "condescending." The best thing to do is acknowledge the reality of failure and investigate the subject with a more rigorous method.

This post was edited by Inviction on May 15 2010 06:15pm

We're not discussing Macedonia. We are discussing the treatment of ethnic Macedonians in Greece, aka Aegean Macedonians.

A crucial element of that controversy is the very name Macedonian, as it is also used by a much more numerous group of people with a Greek national identity to indicate their regional identity. The term "Aegean Macedonians" (Macedonian: Егејски Македонци, Egejski Makedonci) is associated with those parts of the population that have an ethnic Macedonian identity. - from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic-speakers_of_Greek_Macedonia Aegean Macedonia and Aegean Macedonians are different things that you are conflating.

And saying that Greeks blocked Aegean Macedonians from getting a state of their own during the Greek Civil War (1946-1949) because Macedonians "Already have a state" (formed in 1991) is so nonsensical that I don't even know how to address it.

I never said that Aegean Macedonians should get their own state. I said they were prevented from creating their own state in the 1940s during the Greek Civil War and that they are discriminated against in modern-day Greece in a way that attempts to destroy their culture.

You dodge by saying "Ethnic Genocide" and saying that's wrong because I never claimed it. I claimed cultural genocide, as in the attempted destruction of culture. Which is what happened and is still happening.

And are you saying that because Jewish culture existed outside of Europe, Hitler was not attempting genocide? Wiping out a culture in an area is genocide independently of that culture existing elsewhere, by its definition.

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that I think that Macedonia in Greece should be given to Macedonians. I'm not. I said that Macedonians tried and failed to create a state in that area, which is why it is part of Greece today. I then went on to speak about racism against Aegean Macedonians today. Stop trying to attack strawmen that are unrelated to that point.

This post was edited by AiNedeSpelCzech on May 15 2010 06:21pm

Ethnic Macedonians are from Macedonia, so we are discussing Macedonia because the existence of Macedonia implies that the ethnic Macedonians are not a stateless people.



Thanks for telling me what I pointed out to you in the first place (http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=43129044&p=291288898):



The term "Aegean Macedonians" (Macedonian: Егејски Македонци, Egejski Makedonci) is associated with those parts of the population that have an ethnic Macedonian identity. - from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic-speakers_of_Greek_Macedonia Aegean Macedonia and Aegean Macedonians are different things that you are conflating.

You are quite right; Aegean Macedonia and Aegean Macedonians are not the same thing. Aegean Macedonia is the land, while Aegean Macedonians are the people. Your point again?



They already had Yugoslavia (Macedonians are Yugoslav).

I never said that Aegean Macedonians should get their own state. I said they were prevented from creating their own state in the 1940s during the Greek Civil War and that they are discriminated against in modern-day Greece in a way that attempts to destroy their culture.

You stated that Greece is blocking their national self-determination, but Greece has never invaded Macedonia or infringed upon its sovereignty and self-determination.

You dodge by saying "Ethnic Genocide" and saying that's wrong because I never claimed it. I claimed cultural genocide, as in the attempted destruction of culture. Which is what happened and is still happening.

Sorry, but you lose again:

http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=43129044&p=291253950



As I have put in bold, this quote shows you clearly did not know that the Greek Macedonians were separate from the Slavic Macedonians. You were claiming that the Greeks were destroying the culture of the Greek Macedonians when the Greek Macedonians are fully Greek. You realized your mistake and are now trying to weasel your way out of embarrassment by accusing me of semantic games. Why do you do this?

And are you saying that because Jewish culture existed outside of Europe, Hitler was not attempting genocide? Wiping out a culture in an area is genocide independently of that culture existing elsewhere, by its definition.

Unless you can show me a source that claims Greece is massacring its Slavic-speaking population, I fail to see how that analogy is valid.

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that I think that Macedonia in Greece should be given to Macedonians. I'm not.

I assure you that I am doing no such thing. You already stated you were not doing that, and I took note of it:

http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=43129044&p=291099724



What I am arguing against is your next point:

I said that Macedonians tried and failed to create a state in that area, which is why it is part of Greece today.

No, that is not why "it is part of Greece today." Rather, Slavic Macedonians "failed to create a state in that area" because that area had always been Greek.

I then went on to speak about racism against Aegean Macedonians today.

While I am against racism, this statement brings me to another point... can you even provide sources within the last decade, much less "today," that shows that Greece has more racism against its Slavic-speaking population than the normal amount of racism that exists in any society, such as the racism in the United States?

Stop trying to attack strawmen that are unrelated to that point.

I am not trying to do that. In fact, I rather think you are doing that by accusing me of doing that, because frankly I do not know to which "strawmen" you refer.

Lastly, your use of "massive quotefail" to describe my previous post is quite a convenient way to dodge the numerous points I made that caused me to quote so much. Why is it that I am capable of responding to all of my opponent's points, quoting them to show exactly what I am addressing, while you can only rely on vagueness to help yourself find a way out of the treacherous hole your caprice has dug you?

For example, you do not respond to this:

No, you are changing your words. Let me remind me what you stated, since you seem to have forgotten that in addition to Macedonia:







Santara stated Alexander was Macedonian, narcisso stated that he is Greek Macedonian and was from Greek Macedonia, and finally you stated "Macedonia is part of Greece because Greeks whooped their asses and kept them from their right to self-determination as a separate state," clearly in response to narcisso's statement that Alexander was Macedonian and Greek. Your statement was wrong on two levels: the Slavic Macedonians, to whom you now claim you were referring, already have their own state, whereas the Greek Macedonians, to whom you were actually referring since you were responding to a post that had to do with Alexander being Greek, have always been Greek.

This post was edited by Inviction on May 15 2010 07:10pm

@bolded... just wondering what exactly the UN human rights watch are saying (and by that I would like to see exactly what they are saying in written form or spoken directly from them)? Do you have a link to this information? Because I don't see much in the way of this issue from my own searches that really match what you have been saying...


Also, I think that you are not referring to genocide (which involves the killing or physical removal of people of a certain type) but to cultural suppression or ethnocide at the most. The invocation of the word genocide weighs pretty heavy in an argument, and from what you have listed it really seems to be unwarranted to say that the Greek government is committing genocide by not allowing a certain language to be spoken.



This post was edited by Mezandria on May 15 2010 07:49pm

Amazing how well this applies here.

vouch that.



My mistake then. I said ethnic when I meant cultural.

Feel free to feel as though you "Won," since you keep finding small errors in what I've said which were mistakes. The point is that Aegean Macedonia is the land, while Aegean Macedonians are a specific ethnic minority on that land, not "The people." I'm sick of having to type essays to keep up with you and having the inevitable mistakes that show up in those essays used to misdefine what I'm trying to say. I have a tendency to make mistakes because I fire off my posts without editing, and I don't care enough to go through and proof my posts just to avoid you writing multiple paragraphs about a simple mistake.

You keep pretending that my mentioning of historical fact - Greeks kept Macedonians from making a state - is the same thing as trying to push that into the modern day and say the Greeks are continuing to do so. That's the crucial mistake that's causing us to have any conflict over this point at all.