Quote (Goomshill @ Jun 10 2023 11:48pm)

Possession is what USC 793 covers and what they're charging him with, whether or not other aggravating elements are present- and they are equally applicable to cases like Hillary/Biden/Pence. If they excluded the simple possession cases, they wouldn't have 37 charges. You can say they overreached by going after those in addition to the obstruction charges, but now that they have, its going to be very hard for prosecutors to walk it back. If you charge one president with possession of classified documents, you better charge all of them.

'reputational damages' as a vague and nonspecific handwave to generate harm in a criminal proceeding is the kind of unconstitutional baloney that strips defendants of their civil rights. To prove a crime you have to prove specific elements of a crime. In civil law they can talk about hypothetical damages from unknowable potentials that cannot be proven or disproven, but in civil law they can also pass ex post facto laws and trample on your rights all day long. If this actually was a PRA case maybe they could even try that. But proving harm is impossible here in a criminal case, and not required for a strict liability possession charge. And without an underlying crime, what is the DoJ supposed to argue about obstruction or false certification? That they breached attorney-client privilege on the basis of 'hand motions' and 'nodding', without an underlying crime to justify the investigation let alone invasive measures (even raiding his home)- and they didn't even turn up the supposed files in that exchange and can't prove they existed- all to come away with some invented process crime like its Michael Flynn 2.0? c'mon



The takeaway at the end of all this is even if you buy the prosecution's narrative and do not question their legal theory or evidence, they're still only accusing Trump of harmlessly bragging to randos about materials that had no effect on anyone- most likely documents about Mark Milley being a worthless shithead on Russia and Ukraine policy. They're not accusing him of a high crime, treason, bribery, corruption, maliciousness, etc. They're accusing him of committing a dumb crime with no victims. And on that basis, they have plunged our country into the heart of the most perilous internal threat to our democracy we've faced post civil war. I said when Hillary Clinton was being pilloried that it was better for our nation that nobody try to investigate her corruption even if she was guilty- and that was when she was a powerless loser. Now the Biden administration is threatening to bring the whole temple crashing down by pulling out the stops on persecuting his #1 political rival in the run-up to an election, and its no overstatement to say this is precisely the kind of event that could irrecoverably fracture our democracy. Nobody even cared about Hillary the moment she lost, she meant nothing. But trying to weaponize government to disenfranchise half the country?

Quote (Goomshill @ Jun 11 2023 01:48am)

Possession is what USC 793 covers and what they're charging him with, whether or not other aggravating elements are present- and they are equally applicable to cases like Hillary/Biden/Pence

Quote (Handcuffs @ Jun 11 2023 02:32am)

It would seem irresponsible for international governments to share sensitive secrets/classified intelligence in the same way they historically have, given the display here. It compromises trust and transparency on the global stage, which to me, is an existential threat to the country.

Quote (Handcuffs @ Jun 11 2023 02:32am)

It would seem irresponsible for international governments to share sensitive secrets/classified intelligence in the same way they historically have, given the display here. It compromises trust and transparency on the global stage, which to me, is an existential threat to the country.

Quote (Goomshill @ Jun 11 2023 02:49am)

Arguments for making a strict liability crime, not arguments for applying it specifically to Trump and yet not Clinton or Biden or Pence.
Our allies probably care a lot more about their secrets winding up in the hands of the Chinese because our secretary of state put them on a private email server, than Trump showing it to some yahoo from a PAC
Its no surprise that once you start winnowing down the number of required elements of a crime like 'harm' or 'intent', you start casting such a wide net that it criminalizes more than you want.

Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Jun 11 2023 02:51am)

This isn't really hard to understand. The DOJ has discretion in who they charge, and they've used that discretion when dealing with both parties to create an obscenely narrow net with regards to documents handling. Literally just don't actively impede recovery of classified documents for years on end and you won't be charged. That too fucking hard?

Trump was the only person so stupid that he couldn't avoid a single thread dangling in the water.

Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Jun 11 2023 02:47am)

What is abundantly obvious in their treatment of Hillary, Biden, and Pence, and even Trump is that the DOJ will bend over fucking backwards to avoid charging people over mishandling documents as long as they at least give some semblence of cooperation when asked.

Trump knowingly lied about returning the documents, despite over a year of bending over backwards to give him the opportunity to do so, stored them in an area that's already been the target for foreign intelligence operations, and actively impeded the recovery even going as far as to lie to his own attorneys to prevent them disclosing to the government he still had documents.

If Trump had just returned the documents, or even just allowed the FBI to come in and take whatever documents they found without actively obstructing them, this wouldn't be happening. He was given every opportunity to stop being a national security threat and he didn't take it.

Quote (Goomshill @ Jun 11 2023 02:53am)

The same FBI that spent the previous five years trying to stab Trump in the back at every turn, found him too uncooperative? Didn't play ball with the cops? Truly, Trump was the first black president.
the fbis feelies getting hurt isn't a reason to try to blow up the entire country's political system. Accusing Trump of having loose lips without any sunk ships, at worst being a harmless moron, doesn't remotely justify the kind of political arson we're witnessing.

Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Jun 11 2023 02:56am)

Thing about "playing ball" is you have to have leverage to refuse to play. Trump didn't once he stopped being president. By all accounts they could have charged him over a year ago, but like I said, they BENT OVER BACKWARDS FOR OVER A YEAR to allow him to return the documents.

There's no way the FBI, NARA, or anybody else in the government comes out looking bad in this situation unless you are a hack of unbelievable proportions. (Yes, I do know who I'm talking to guys). If anything they look shitty for taking this long to actually charge him.

Quote (Goomshill @ Jun 11 2023 03:06am)

How many years after Biden left the office of VP did they wait until they raided his home and got those boxes he stored next to the corvette? How much time did he have to return them?
They raided Trump's home and charged him with 37 crimes on the basis of something dumb with no effect on anyone. That's sure the actions of a three letter agency that bent over backwards to accommodate him and give him benefit of the doubt, not the actions of a backstabbing political hatchet job crew that has spent the past five years leaking to undermine him, trying to frame and entrap Trump officials, spied on him baselessly, leaked the results of that spying, lied to judges about it and faced no consequences, and finally got fed up with their impotent spycraft tactics and went straight to gestapo-esque home raids and trying to lock him up.