Quote (Goomshill @ Feb 24 2022 03:06pm)

So in reflection as we're at some indeterminate point way through the invasion-

I think this all spells the limitations of soft power and a rude reminder that military force exists and works. America was willing to intervene on the most limited basis, be it some shadowy CIA backing and popular support, funding and whatever else, when western Ukraine rose up against Yanukovych. Obama and Biden thought it played into our geopolitical strategy. Putin had opened a front against us in Syria by backing Assad and weaponizing the flow of refugees and migrants to destabilize the EU, and America backed a revolution in Russia's back yard and when the dust settled, all the Russia oligarchs who had puppeteered the Ukrainian government were in exile and replaced with CIA and State Department masters who installed themselves as the new oligarchy. Not a single bomb was dropped, no shots were fired, no tanks rolled in, no shock and awe. They fought their war more on twitter than in the streets. Just like Georgia before it, Russia was not going to tolerate it. They annexed Crimea immediately and sent troops into Donetsk and Lutansk, but it has been quite the delay before this invasion. And what America did with weaponized populism, Russia did with weapons. Sure, they backed it up with geopolitical intrigue and set the stage with economic dominance of the neighbors and removing Ukraine's transit leverage before they moved. It wasn't just some blunt caveman tactic to bludgeon their foes into submission. But at the end of the day, the west took a prize without force and Russia took it back by force.

Quote (Goomshill @ Feb 24 2022 03:06pm)

So in reflection as we're at some indeterminate point way through the invasion-

I think this all spells the limitations of soft power and a rude reminder that military force exists and works. America was willing to intervene on the most limited basis, be it some shadowy CIA backing and popular support, funding and whatever else, when western Ukraine rose up against Yanukovych. Obama and Biden thought it played into our geopolitical strategy. Putin had opened a front against us in Syria by backing Assad and weaponizing the flow of refugees and migrants to destabilize the EU, and America backed a revolution in Russia's back yard and when the dust settled, all the Russia oligarchs who had puppeteered the Ukrainian government were in exile and replaced with CIA and State Department masters who installed themselves as the new oligarchy. Not a single bomb was dropped, no shots were fired, no tanks rolled in, no shock and awe. They fought their war more on twitter than in the streets. Just like Georgia before it, Russia was not going to tolerate it. They annexed Crimea immediately and sent troops into Donetsk and Lutansk, but it has been quite the delay before this invasion. And what America did with weaponized populism, Russia did with weapons. Sure, they backed it up with geopolitical intrigue and set the stage with economic dominance of the neighbors and removing Ukraine's transit leverage before they moved. It wasn't just some blunt caveman tactic to bludgeon their foes into submission. But at the end of the day, the west took a prize without force and Russia took it back by force.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Feb 24 2022 09:17pm)

As I was thinking about this, i'm not really sure why Russia didn't step in during the Maidan. I think letting the pro-west side settle in and take roots probably was a big mistake on their side. As I remember back then the west-Russia dichotomy was pretty evenly split judging by the elections of Yanukovich. Fast forward 7 years and I don't really think that's the case. In reality if someone told me the split is more like 75-25 now for the west I would buy that.

Quote (chopstickz777 @ Feb 24 2022 02:04pm)

No, the better question is - how can so many Americans be so dumb as not to see it, Karen?

Obama manufactured the coup in Ukraine in 2014 that led to the civil war and the deaths of tens of thousands, and the rise of far-right ultranationalist Nazi's in Ukraine.

Then the crisis was on hold for a while during the Trump years.

Joe Biden then takes back over and the first thing he does is un-freeze the conflict in Ukraine because he needs something to try and hurt Russia.

It's not rocket science, and honestly I'm completely dumb-founded that you fail to even so much as detect the blindingly obvious.

Obama and Biden's administrations are both ran by Neocons. It is no coincidence that suddenly the Ukrainians are causing trouble a mere 1 year after the Neocons re-take the White House.

You want to know why I openly mock you? Because you act like you're as blind as a bat and as dumb as a bag of rocks, for Christ's sake. Then you act like the obvious shit isn't obvious. Truly incredible :rofl:

Quote (ofthevoid @ Feb 24 2022 02:17pm)

As I was thinking about this, i'm not really sure why Russia didn't step in during the Maidan. I think letting the pro-west side settle in and take roots probably was a big mistake on their side. As I remember back then the west-Russia dichotomy was pretty evenly split judging by the elections of Yanukovich. Fast forward 7 years and I don't really think that's the case. In reality if someone told me the split is more like 75-25 now for the west I would buy that. This imo makes it a lot harder to install their own regime, especially now that they had to flex the military muscle and probably kill a bunch of Ukrainians.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Feb 24 2022 02:05pm)

Reading the partisan shit flinging here and on Twitter makes me roll my eyes. Does everything have to be about democrat vs republican, Trump vs Biden?

Quote (Santara @ Feb 24 2022 01:25pm)

also @ "Nazi's" - I'm sure you missed this in Spetznaz Linguistics School, but the apostrophe S denotes ownership. And also, Jews are not Nazis.

Quote (Djunior @ Feb 24 2022 01:52pm)

If the Ukrainian government hadn't been overthrown by means of violent revolution orchestrated by the West the Russians wouldn't have had to come in to "undermine the will of sovereign countries" as you call it. Same happened in Georgia btw in 2008 after NATO stated that Ukraine and Georgia would eventually become NATO members.

From Wikipedia article:

While the West is being run by woke big tech billionaires, woke corrupt MSM and swamp demon politicians. You should look at things from both sides. The West has been involved in regime changes all over the world in all sorts of illegal operations.

Quote (Goomshill @ Feb 24 2022 01:34pm)

They had been shadow propping up Assad for 3 years and shortly thereafter intervened directly in Syria, while still suppressing the insurgency in Chechnya / North Caucasus in a conflict somewhat hot at the time.
I think if I had to guess, it was a combination of Russia being unwilling to open too many war fronts at the same time, and proportional non-response to a non-hot conflict. As long as the overthrow of Ukraine was political, not violent, and wasn't being used as a NATO staging ground and NATO was unwilling to arm Ukraine, Russia didn't really have an immediate casus belli. Clearly, they had reason to seize the 'Russian' parts of Ukraine, which they did, immediately, hence the Crimean conflict. That was something they could do without fighting a war like this one. They seized friendly territory and were at a standoff with hostile territory. Maybe besides being risk adverse for opening wars on multiple fronts, the Russian plan from there on out was just indecisive.