Opening the orifice you are using as mouth but still failing:
9th line in the OP: " You see, have to take care of not putting all in the same bag, it was not all american soldiers, only a specific part of them"

Let's go back on topic:
Russia is a terrorist country, its soldiers are raping, executing, deporting, looting civilians. Russia fire missiles on civilian infrastructures in winter.
China is hand in hand with Russia in miilitary drill.
CheckMate.

This post was edited by Meanwhile on Dec 19 2022 08:40am

your going off topic here, or rather you are being pre-emptive. Russia and the US have also gone hand in hand with military exercises. If the US sees Russia and China as its adversary's then it not illogical for them to find some common themes. This however does not negate the fact that they are 2 different nations/cultures/ideologies. Feel free to continue posting stuff like this but bear with us while we firm up how we got here.

Note that I could just as easily post this:

"Countries have approved a historic deal to reverse decades of environmental destruction threatening the world's species and ecosystems at a marathon UN biodiversity summit early this morning.

The chair of the COP15 nature summit, Chinese Environment Minister Huang Runqiu, declared the deal adopted at a late-night plenary session in Montreal and struck his gavel, sparking loud applause from assembled delegates.

In doing so he overruled an objection from the Democratic Republic of Congo, which had refused to back the text, demanding greater funding for developing countries as part of the accord.

After four years of fraught negotiations, more than 190 other states rallied behind the Chinese-brokered accord aimed at saving the lands, oceans and species from pollution, degradation and the climate crisis."

to highlight examples of how China is getting buy in from the world (noting the US has opted not to lead).

This post was edited by ferdia on Dec 19 2022 08:51am

It can't be helped, notice that the situation wasn't that bad before Trump became President ( Not that I am accusing Trump of any wrong doing to be honest ).
Obama was starting certain measures to curb the Chinese during his second term. But Trump went into overdrive and Biden cannot loosen those restrictions and he put steroids on those existing sanctions etc etc.

Actually Trump only wanted a better deal in favor of the United States. All those extreme measures which include the Capture of the Huawei Princess was not orchestrated by Trump. It was by John Bolton. Trump was freaking pissed because he got some pretty good deals from China and some war hawks behind him screwed it up.

We also have to look at certain local politics in regards to this because most you you from the West didn't know.
Relationship during the Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao period was pretty good. When Xi finally came to power he wanted to get rid of those massive corruption in China ( I am not saying that his boys are not corrupted , maybe much less corrupted ).

The Jiang Fraction have full and total control of Hong Kong and if you realized this, Hong Kong is somewhat a gateway to China itself.
There were talks that the Jiang fraction hook up with the US to destabilize China.

So why did the Jiang Fraction do this ? They wanted to maintain as much power and balance as possible. There is a lot of money to be made.

The timeline. of Xi rise

Late 2013 Occupy Central
In between up till the extradition Protest there are a few minor ones.

2019 HK Protest ( Euro Maiden of the East )

So one things lead to another and here we are .

Look like some correction is needed:

Russia and China launch large-scale military drills amid tensions with US

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/01/russia-and-china-launch-large-scale-military-drills-amid-tensions-with-us

In-topic is pretty clear.

to reiterate: i welcome you to post like this but reminder that at the moment we are looking at the causes of this. the steps that led to this step. then we look at whats happening now, and then we will try to see what the next step(s) will look like.

Also, that link you provided is quite neutral here is its final comments:

"Alexander Gabuev, a political analyst who closely follows Russia-China ties, said: “It’s very important for Beijing to show to the US that it has levers to pressure America and its global interests. The joint manoeuvres with Moscow, including the naval drills, are intended to signal that if the pressure on Beijing continues it will have no other choice but to strengthen the military partnership with Russia.”

The exercise continues a series of joint war games by Russia and China in recent years, including naval drills and patrols by long-range bombers over the Sea of Japan and the East China Sea. Last year Russian troops for the first time deployed to Chinese territory for joint manoeuvres."

I dont disagree with that analysis. Some people may believe I am reaching when i state that the ukrainian conflict has basically isolated Russia, whom China is more then happy to pick up. This to my mind is a logical step by China, while accepting this may be viewed as hostile by western minds.

This post was edited by ferdia on Dec 19 2022 10:14am

Theft of intellectual property and risk of personal data breach are the biggest reasons. China also wants to incorporate Taiwan the way they did with Hong Kong. Both are things that are quite unfairly.

Then there are the other things in Xinjiang, which are immoral.

I hope there is a peaceful way through this stage where both sides can play fair, it’s hard to know.

This post was edited by EndlessSky on Dec 19 2022 10:24am

My Orifice is used for amoral political debates.
Unlike yours, which is commendable in your world, is used to teach and uplift young people the passion of life in a rather romantic and sophisticated French demeanor.
But of course some of us in our rather backward culture is not ready to accept such progressive disposition as compared to you.

We might not be able to advance ourselves to that point in near future.
So there is a lot to ponder about.

The only positive thing see atm is their dramatic birthrate.

1. The Theft of intellectual propertyin and of itself is not enough for the US to see China as its enemy, but rather as a competitor in various fields.

As a background to people unfamiliar with this point - the US and other govt's have repeatedly expressed frustration at China over the last 2 decades for their theft of intellectual property, which has enabled China to rapidly progress across a number of fields to the extent that they are now market leading in those fields and in certain areas now lead with the best technology having "caught up".

in laymans terms, they stole the exam papers, while training the students. The students now are experts and no longer need the exam papers (but will still look at them just to ace the relevant exam).

2. The Risk of personal data breaches - I dont understand your point here, can you elaborate ? This also to my mind is more of a governance and risk assurance piece rather then being a root cause of issues. Is this related to Huawei or w/e its called?

in laymans terms, the US likes to spy on everyone, using their systems, but is affronted when China tried to spy on everyone, using their own systems.

3. The immoral things to which you have referred are internal matters in China, and while the US and the Western MSM and govt's might latch on to them as reasons, they follow on from US policy, ergo they can not be the root cause.

in laymans terms, this is abuses against ethnic minorities etc ( i use the term etc but this should in no way be seen as trivializing a real threat to basic human decency ).

4. China wanting to incorporate Taiwan the way it did Hong Kong is certainly an attack on US interests in the world. While this may be a manifestation of the root cause in action (i.e. China hostility to neighbors) it again occured after a change in US policy ( i think ? ).

In the round we are trying to see was there a specific trigger event that led to the ever worsening relationship between the two countries. If we find and agree on that point we can then complete the jigsaw up to today.

This post was edited by ferdia on Dec 19 2022 11:04am

I will refrain from the first few points because I am not knowledgeable enough to make those comments. I can speak more about the Xinjiang situation but I will need to frame it in a rather fair manner later.

For the Taiwan and Hong Kong part. I have indicated in another comment on your thread that it all happened when Xi took over. Internal fractions and politics and working with the US to destabilize or stop Xi's rule due to personal and political interests.
The are very legit reasons for some of the Chinese fractions within to stop Xi from grabbing absolute power.
It is a known fact since I was at ground zero in Hong Kong in 2010 and I took part in the legal protests in 2019 until it went sour.