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Feb 24 2022 11:52am
Quote (Sh00p @ 24 Feb 2022 12:46)
Some of us have actually gone to see it first hand and others still have a real world comparison of our own forces against those of other countries.

These people know for a fact there is absolutely zero competition. Which is why putin relies on nukes so much. Its bassically everything to him as far as the US is concerned.


These people are dead wrong. The US failed to pacify Afghanistan and Iraq yet they think they can pacify China or Russia lolol

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Feb 24 2022 11:54am
Quote (Vastet @ 24 Feb 2022 18:52)
These people are dead wrong. The US failed to pacify Afghanistan and Iraq yet they think they can pacify China or Russia lolol


You cant pacify a terrorist organization, you need to nuke them.
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Feb 24 2022 11:56am
Quote (IceMage @ Feb 24 2022 10:35am)
The West saw itself as the winner because it was.

There's a presupposition in your post that Russia must be given a sphere of influence, free of Western involvement. My question is why? Nation states have chosen to align with the West, to join the EU and/or NATO. We didn't force them to make that choice. They made it because it was in their best interest to do so, because opening up their economies and becoming more democratic are good things.

If Russia wants nations to align with it, they should find a way to do so without coercion and force. But that's all they have, which is why it makes sense for their neighbors to join the EU and NATO.


If America wants nations to align with it, they should find a way to do so without coercion and force. But that's all they have, which is why it makes sense for literally nobody to trust the US since we openly support fascists in Ukraine and terrorists in Syria.
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Feb 24 2022 11:56am
Quote (Ognadibik @ 24 Feb 2022 12:54)
You cant pacify a terrorist organization, you need to nuke them.


When they can and will nuke you back, that is suicide and everyone loses.
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Feb 24 2022 11:58am
Quote (Vastet @ 24 Feb 2022 18:56)
When they can and will nuke you back, that is suicide and everyone loses.


We are reaching the point where thats preferable.
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Feb 24 2022 12:02pm
Quote (Djunior @ Feb 24 2022 05:21pm)
I can see this conflict from both sides, which apparently many cannot.

This isn't a single sided conflict, both the West and the Russians have blame. However, after the fall of the USSR there was a massive opportunity to build a new security agreement that would respect both sides.

It never happened and in fact the West saw itself as winner of the cold war and Russia fell into chaos in the 1990s, economic and military collapse, crime skyrocketed. Putin stood up determined to fix it.

It's simply a missed opportunity and now we're dealing with the effects.

Perhaps you should watch this, I posted it before, it's a proper lecture by John Mearsheimer from Chicago University. This is 2015 btw ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4


For the last couple of years Ukraine is doing it's best to work for their future. According to statistics there is 1.2 mln legal immigrants in Poland itself. Who knows how many of them are not in the records.
All of these immigrants and people working in Ukraine have done a far better job than Putin did in Russia for the last 30 years in terms of life quality improvement. And this is because they finally leaned towards the West. They saw opportunities and they seized them.
Meanwhile Putin created worst social and wealth disparities Russia has ever seen. I have a feeling that the only thing that russian people have in common is a wet dream of a long lost imperial power.

Regarding the poor division of Ukraine and political differences that is somehow giving Russia the legitimacy to invade - the only reason for this situation is because of holodomor and relocation of people due to collectivisation. All of these things were caused by Russia in the first place. Their actions left a footprint on Ukraine's today political scene, their influence in Ukraine is so strong because of this and it's their responsibility.

Maybe I am biased. But as a citizen of a country that was an involuntary 'very close friend' of Russia (which of we're still suffering from) I just can't get rid of the impression that they don't give a damn obout security.

Thanks for the lecture, I'll give it a shot later in the evening
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Feb 24 2022 12:11pm
Quote (Ognadibik @ Feb 24 2022 10:54am)
You cant pacify a terrorist organization, you need to nuke them.


Not surprising coming from someone that supports fascists in Ukraine.

You would have made for a good SS officer in the 1940's. Maybe you should go volunteer to fight in Ukraine right now, since you hate Russia so badly? The disintegrating Nazi battalions in Ukraine need you right now more than ever!
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Feb 24 2022 12:12pm
Quote (Ognadibik @ Feb 24 2022 10:58am)
We are reaching the point where thats preferable.


You're delusional. Go for a walk, realize you lost your sense of reason and then come back to us.
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Feb 24 2022 12:14pm
Quote (chopstickz777 @ 24 Feb 2022 19:12)
You're delusional. Go for a walk, realize you lost your sense of reason and then come back to us.


No, think about it, if this keeps going on the whole eu region will become part of the russian terrorist organization in a hundred years. A nuke on them is preferable, atleast the survivors can live in a free world. And you wont see me complaining if I am not among them.
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Feb 24 2022 12:15pm
Quote (Djunior @ Feb 24 2022 12:50pm)
You know that the USSR didn't intervene when protests took place in Eastern Germany at the time or don't you? It led to the fall of the so called Berlin wall which started the process. The USSR withdrew out of Eastern Germany on their own account while Western allies stayed in Germany and NATO expanded, taking in the countries that the USSR had left.

Instead of the West calling themselves the winners of the cold war they should have build a normal relationship with Russia and we wouldn't be having this Ukraine crisis today.

Stating that those are free countries that can do whatever the hell they want without taking into account the security concerns of a huge country like Russia that possesses thousands of nukes is plain dumb and it shows that you're incapable of seeing the conflict from both sides.


Allowing Russia to have a sphere of influence where they can undermine the will of sovereign countries undermines the whole idea of a rules-based international order.

I'm not saying Russia has no legitimate security concerns, as if NATO should park nuclear weapons on their border without them reacting. But I don't accept the argument that "Russia has historically been a world power and has a bunch of nukes, so a chunk of the world has to be left to them, no matter the will of the people who live in those countries".
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