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Jul 16 2021 11:20am
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Jul 16 2021 07:13pm)
Healthcare itself is a modern sentiment, so... duh?


For the sake of "Political (...) debate", you should simply not respond to that chain of XistenZ's posts. Even if he were right about the Romans, his point would still not lead to any argument pro or con anything I've said.
There's no reason to say modern sentiments are any more or less valid than others.

It's just a red herring. The only fitting response is to ignore it.

This post was edited by Leevee on Jul 16 2021 11:20am
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Jul 16 2021 11:23am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 16 2021 01:20pm)
Healthcare in the sense of "hospitals, surgeries and pills" is a modern concept. Medical treatment is not.


My medical bills, if I were uninsured, would exceed the amount of money I will spend on food&shelter in my entire lifetime.
My back surgery cost more than my house.

You are eating paint chips if you think that is how medical costs functioned in the past.
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Jul 16 2021 11:25am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 16 2021 12:20pm)
Healthcare in the sense of "hospitals, surgeries and pills" is a modern concept. Medical treatment is not.


In the sense that it's something that can be produced, it is. Used to be mostly herbs and superstition. Very little you could do to intervene with any specific disease, and the available interventions were incredibly cheap and cultural. Even surgeries were not done with much advanced skill. We have documents from India of early cataract surgery that included "a young boy with an exceptional lung capacity".

So in every meaningful sense to this conversation, it is a modern concept.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Jul 16 2021 11:26am
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Jul 16 2021 11:26am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 16 2021 01:20pm)
Healthcare in the sense of "hospitals, surgeries and pills" is a modern concept. Medical treatment is not.


Jesus Christ.

Healthcare in the west is evidenced based best practices, which tend to be those things.

Folk medicine isn't real healthcare.

This post was edited by Skinned on Jul 16 2021 11:27am
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Jul 16 2021 11:31am
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Jul 16 2021 01:25pm)
In the sense that it's something that can be produced, it is. Used to be mostly herbs and superstition. Very little you could do to intervene with any specific disease, and the available interventions were incredibly cheap and cultural.

So in every meaningful sense to this conversation, it is a modern concept.


My great-grandmother paid for her first child’s birth with chickens and an IOU

My daughter’s birth was 13,000

Nobody needed health insurance back then because healthcare was a literal joke and was priced accordingly

This post was edited by Doggyfood on Jul 16 2021 11:32am
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Jul 16 2021 11:33am
Quote (Skinned @ Jul 16 2021 12:26pm)
Jesus Christ.

Healthcare in the west is evidenced based best practices, which tend to be those things.

Folk medicine isn't real healthcare.


You shush with your basic understanding of the field.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Jul 16 2021 11:44am
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Jul 16 2021 11:35am
Quote (Doggyfood @ 16 Jul 2021 19:23)
My medical bills, if I were uninsured, would exceed the amount of money I will spend on food&shelter in my entire lifetime.
My back surgery cost more than my house.

You are eating paint chips if you think that is how medical costs functioned in the past.


The argument was not about the magnitude of medical costs, it was about the idea that an individual who cannot provide for his medical treatment out of his own means (no matter how cheap or expensive it would be) is entitled to have it covered by society. Throughout most of human history, it was handled via charity provided and funded by volunteers.


Quote (Leevee @ 16 Jul 2021 19:20)
For the sake of "Political (...) debate", you should simply not respond to that chain of XistenZ's posts. Even if he were right about the Romans, his point would still not lead to any argument pro or con anything I've said.
There's no reason to say modern sentiments are any more or less valid than others.

It's just a red herring. The only fitting response is to ignore it.

Your claim that "If someone dies because they can't pay a medical bill, in a country that has the means to help that person, then that's blood on capitalism's hands." is almost comical in its overgeneralization and lack of nuance.

Also, the equivalent situation frequently arose and still arises in communist countries where the state-run healthcare system does not provide certain treatments although it technically could. So instead of not getting the treatment that you need because you lack the financial resources, you have the situation where someone is at the mercy of the state-run bureaucracy and just falls through the cracks. By this standard that you introduced, every society with a non-perfect healthcare system has "blood on its hands". :rolleyes:
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Jul 16 2021 11:40am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 16 2021 12:35pm)
Your claim that "If someone dies because they can't pay a medical bill, in a country that has the means to help that person, then that's blood on capitalism's hands." is almost comical in its overgeneralization and lack of nuance.


If somebody starves under Mao, that's communism, but if somebody can't get healthcare under Biden, that's not capitalism?

I see both as that thing.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Jul 16 2021 11:40am
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Jul 16 2021 11:42am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 16 2021 07:35pm)
Your claim that "If someone dies because they can't pay a medical bill, in a country that has the means to help that person, then that's blood on capitalism's hands." is almost comical in its overgeneralization and lack of nuance.


You pretending that this statement should indeed be kept without any nuance whatsoever, and pretending not to realize that it's a lazy explanation of my opinion, makes your response moot.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 16 2021 07:35pm)
Also, the equivalent situation frequently arose and still arises in communist countries where the state-run healthcare system does not provide certain treatments although it technically could. So instead of not getting the treatment that you need because you lack the financial resources, you have the situation where someone is at the mercy of the state-run bureaucracy and just falls through the cracks. By this standard that you introduced, every society with a non-perfect healthcare system has "blood on its hands". :rolleyes:


And the same goes for you thinking that my criticism against capitalism implies support for communism.

Thanks for reminding me why I stayed away from this place so long.

This post was edited by Leevee on Jul 16 2021 11:43am
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Jul 16 2021 11:50am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 16 2021 01:35pm)
The argument was not about the magnitude of medical costs, it was about the idea that an individual who cannot provide for his medical treatment out of his own means (no matter how cheap or expensive it would be) is entitled to have it covered by society. Throughout most of human history, it was handled via charity provided and funded by volunteers.



Your claim that "If someone dies because they can't pay a medical bill, in a country that has the means to help that person, then that's blood on capitalism's hands." is almost comical in its overgeneralization and lack of nuance.

Also, the equivalent situation frequently arose and still arises in communist countries where the state-run healthcare system does not provide certain treatments although it technically could. So instead of not getting the treatment that you need because you lack the financial resources, you have the situation where someone is at the mercy of the state-run bureaucracy and just falls through the cracks. By this standard that you introduced, every society with a non-perfect healthcare system has "blood on its hands". :rolleyes:


To your first praragraph:
That charity is gone. If you do not think the state should pay the bills of those who cannot afford it and no charity exists to fill the role, what should happen to the poor?

Follow your beliefs to their logical conclusion and embrace it.

To your second paragraph, when state-run healthcare fails someone and causes them to die, that is indeed blood on its hands.

Do you have any reason to believe it fails more people than a private system with insurance?
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