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May 20 2020 06:02pm
Quote (InsaneBobb @ 21 May 2020 01:42)
Where murder is concerned, the number of convictions post-1990 that have been proven false are very few indeed. A few crop up here and there, but they're far more rare.

The idea that, "Well, one prisoner in 1000 might actually be innocent, therefore we should treat them all to a 4 star hotel stay" is absurd.

A prisoner is not a slave, whether they work or not. A prisoner is a prisoner. The only question is whether they're forced to earn their keep or not. If they are, then the focus should be that their working conditions are in-line with any non-prisoner's working conditions. If they're not, it's not at question.

Frankly, I agree that forced labor shouldn't be a thing. Instead, I think prisoners should have a choice. Option 1: Pay for your stay. While your stay probably costs more than this, let's just say an even $1000/month incarcerated. So if you serve 10 years? You now owe $120,000. Payment terms to be determined by the state. Failure to live up to the terms = new crime committed, time to go rack up more debt. Option 2: Volunteer for labor while in the prison. Pay is $7.50/hour (federal minimum wage). Once you hit 134 hours for the month, you've paid that month off and actually get PAID that $7.50/hour for every additional hour worked. You can use that as a carryover for the next month, or as a "savings" for whenever you're released.

This would completely resolve the "oh but it's slavery!" nonsense. No it's not. Don't do the crime, don't have your rights taken away.

And fender with the meaningless graphic again.



Your non-sense has flaws everywhere:

- The % concerned by murder probably hyper small
- "a prisoner is a prisoner" ... even a slice of bread can do better than that.
- Delirious assumptions about an hypothetical "pay for your keep", this is "for profit" prisons.

ROFL

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/the-cold-hard-facts-about-americas-private-prison-system

Private prisons are a multibillion-dollar industry – and growing. Take for example CoreCivic (formerly Corrections Corporation of America), the largest operator of private prisons in the U.S. In fewer than 20 years, it’s seen its revenue increase by more than 500 percent, from roughly $280 million in 2000, to $1.77 billion in 2017.

=> Some research even indicates that private prisons often refuse to accept inmates that cost a lot to house (i.e. the violent offenders), making the statistics they report highly misleading.


complete bullshit destroyed thanks.

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May 20 2020 06:27pm
Quote (InsaneBobb @ 21 May 2020 01:42)
Where murder is concerned, the number of convictions post-1990 that have been proven false are very few indeed. A few crop up here and there, but they're far more rare.

The idea that, "Well, one prisoner in 1000 might actually be innocent, therefore we should treat them all to a 4 star hotel stay" is absurd.

A prisoner is not a slave, whether they work or not. A prisoner is a prisoner. The only question is whether they're forced to earn their keep or not. If they are, then the focus should be that their working conditions are in-line with any non-prisoner's working conditions. If they're not, it's not at question.

Frankly, I agree that forced labor shouldn't be a thing. Instead, I think prisoners should have a choice. Option 1: Pay for your stay. While your stay probably costs more than this, let's just say an even $1000/month incarcerated. So if you serve 10 years? You now owe $120,000. Payment terms to be determined by the state. Failure to live up to the terms = new crime committed, time to go rack up more debt. Option 2: Volunteer for labor while in the prison. Pay is $7.50/hour (federal minimum wage). Once you hit 134 hours for the month, you've paid that month off and actually get PAID that $7.50/hour for every additional hour worked. You can use that as a carryover for the next month, or as a "savings" for whenever you're released.

This would completely resolve the "oh but it's slavery!" nonsense. No it's not. Don't do the crime, don't have your rights taken away.

And fender with the meaningless graphic again.


shit being so egregious that not even YOU are able to spin it doesn't mean it's "meaningless", lol.
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May 20 2020 11:37pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ May 20 2020 05:02pm)
Exoneration based on DNA evidence say that at least 1% of people are falsely convicted. That's a very significant number of people. The number of people on death row is estimated to be 4% false convictions. There aren't any estimates that I'm aware of that say its as low as 1 in 1000.

I never said anything about a 4 star hotel. Again, you're putting words in my mouth. It's a very bad habit of yours and makes it difficult to take your criticisms seriously.

Pay in many prisons is non existent, or cents per hour. I'm not aware of any prison paying anywhere close to minimum wage. Additionally, they are often charged for things like personal hygiene products and phone calls with family at absurd rates. Still, prisoners shouldn't be obligated to pay their stay. The idea that they should be put in debt for their prison stay is frankly disgusting, and a pretty perfect way to ensure they will never get back on their feet afterwards with that debt dragging their employment applications, credit applications, etc. down.


DNA based exoneration is primarily from old cases. That's kind of the problem. Those on death row and those sentenced to life who were convicted 50 years ago didn't have the benefit of DNA evidence, genetic mapping, etc.

Utilizing that fact when considering prison policy today is not great. I won't argue the point about "for profit" prisons at all. I don't like or support them. Either prisons should be a function of the state, not contracted out, or they shouldn't exist. But for cases tried TODAY, there's a severe problem:

You did not commit the crime. I did not commit the crime. Why are we obligated to foot the bill for the crime? People cost a lot of money to house, feed, clothe, etc. These costs should not fall to tax payers. We already have to pay our own rent/mortgage, taxes, etc.

What you're really discussing is people living tax free, 3 square, never a worry about the roof over their head. Due to strange "human rights" that nobody seems to be able to adequately explain, they even get cable. Who pays for it? We do. Not those who committed the crime.

I mean, I suppose rather than prisons where we actually "take care of" these people, we could simply create a huge compound, toss in some cows, goats, and basic tools, and drop new prisoners over the side, and they could raise their own animals, farm their own land, and effectively survive or die on their own. Even then though, the public is liable for the bill for the guards that insure prisoners stay in the compounds.

Do you see the issue here? I'm not discussing what pay currently is in prisons. I'm saying that penal labor as an offset to prison costs is just fine. It's possible to incentivise it to make it "do it willingly or assume the debt your incarceration has been lumping on the public", but one way or another, the system is pretty broken. Sure, private prisons should get the axe. On the flipside, no, I neither agree that forcing prisoners to work is slavery, nor that they should even be afforded an option where they can't work to earn their stay, unless they have outside cash, and are going to pay their own way.
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May 21 2020 12:23am
Capitalism is the free movement of labor. They should’ve moved if they didn’t like it.
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May 21 2020 05:00am
Quote (fender @ May 21 2020 01:27am)
https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/NATO_US_2018.png

i'm curious, how do you explain this? are americans just such shitty and criminal people by nature, or is there a massive flaw in the system?


*Gets shown how poor migrant workers are really treated in his "superior country" and now desperately reaches into his diapers to wildly fling some shit around"

How do you not understand that if people commit crime they might be incarcerated. That's how it works at least in the red states. Sadly we see blue states like CA not even bothering anymore with repeat offender homeless substance abusers and let them walk free.

BTW just like other countries on that shit list do. The purple haired dipshits will claim it's because of bad childhoods or some shit like that and offenders are free to go and on another rampage. Nice justice system boy.

Quote (Saucisson6000 @ May 21 2020 02:02am)
Your non-sense has flaws everywhere:

- The % concerned by murder probably hyper small
- "a prisoner is a prisoner" ... even a slice of bread can do better than that.
- Delirious assumptions about an hypothetical "pay for your keep", this is "for profit" prisons.

ROFL

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/the-cold-hard-facts-about-americas-private-prison-system

Private prisons are a multibillion-dollar industry – and growing. Take for example CoreCivic (formerly Corrections Corporation of America), the largest operator of private prisons in the U.S. In fewer than 20 years, it’s seen its revenue increase by more than 500 percent, from roughly $280 million in 2000, to $1.77 billion in 2017.

=> Some research even indicates that private prisons often refuse to accept inmates that cost a lot to house (i.e. the violent offenders), making the statistics they report highly misleading.


complete bullshit destroyed thanks.


Do you know how many criminal illegals are on the streets in France? How many times have huge illegal camps like the infamous Calais jungle been cleaned up after which the illegal criminals simply walked back?

Is it really any wonder that incarceration rates are not high if you do nothing and simply let criminals walk free? What a shit justice system and what a shit hole to live in.

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May 21 2020 05:01am
Quote (fender @ May 20 2020 05:34pm)
if you don't like the information, just ignore the substance - don't even bother to check it - just discredit the source.

straight from the brainwashed bootlickers' handbook, you guys.


tier IV ffs. what a shithole...


"These are the countries, ranked easiest to hardest on how easily Big Labor can steamroll industry, private enterprise, and the public" ~ muh unions.
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May 21 2020 05:31am
Quote (Interesting @ May 21 2020 02:23am)
Capitalism is the free movement of labor. They should’ve moved if they didn’t like it.


Labor can't move when its stuck in mortgages. Mortgage translated from latin is Death Grip.

Others are mortgaged to the ghetto.

Quote (InsaneBobb @ May 20 2020 06:50pm)
Penal labor is not slavery. The labor is used as a form of punishment for committing a crime. It's not even legal in some states, and barely practiced in others. Really not the most common thing.

And those incarcerated while awaiting trial do not qualify for penal labor at all. Only convicted criminals qualify, and only for some types of crime.

Committing murder is a choice. That you have to make some license plates as a portion of your punishment? So what? That's not slavery. Slavery is not a choice. Murder is though. :)


According to the Constitution of the United States it is the justification for incarcerstion.

One of the weirder things i learned in the US Constitution class.

Again, slavery was never abolished in the constitution although blacks were freed from chattel slavery from the Emancipation Proclamation onward.


Quote (Santara @ May 21 2020 07:01am)
"These are the countries, ranked easiest to hardest on how easily Big Labor can steamroll industry, private enterprise, and the public" ~ muh unions.


Yeah, fuck unions and working families.

This post was edited by Skinned on May 21 2020 05:36am
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May 21 2020 08:15am
Quote (Djunior @ 21 May 2020 13:00)
*Gets shown how poor migrant workers are really treated in his "superior country" and now desperately reaches into his diapers to wildly fling some shit around"

How do you not understand that if people commit crime they might be incarcerated. That's how it works at least in the red states. Sadly we see blue states like CA not even bothering anymore with repeat offender homeless substance abusers and let them walk free.

BTW just like other countries on that shit list do. The purple haired dipshits will claim it's because of bad childhoods or some shit like that and offenders are free to go and on another rampage. Nice justice system boy.



Do you know how many criminal illegals are on the streets in France? How many times have huge illegal camps like the infamous Calais jungle been cleaned up after which the illegal criminals simply walked back?

Is it really any wonder that incarceration rates are not high if you do nothing and simply let criminals walk free? What a shit justice system and what a shit hole to live in.


lol, i know your reading comprehension isn't exactly stellar, but i thought that even you should have been able to follow how we arrived here: "slave labour", state-imposed forced labour in prisons (it even was mentioned in the source YOU linked - again, you obviously didn't read it, ahahaha), millions of americans incarcerated, highly incentivised by profit motives... it's not some random, unrelated 'shit', but a very relevant aspect when we talk about labour exploitation - in fact, it's the closest to ACTUAL slave labour of all the different forms of exploitation.

am i surprised to see you perform extreme mental gymnastics to pretend like incarcerating so many americans is actually a GOOD thing? no, after all you would shill for everything that happens in america, because you aren't exactly the brightest candle on the cake - but even you should have noticed that it does NOT work. you know where people actually and regularly go on 'rampages'? in the country that locks away the most.
funny how that works, isn't it? with those numbers (and all those guns for 'protection' around), you should easily be the safest country in the world - but for some 'mysterious' reason you're quite the opposite - at least in comparison to your peer countries. ever thought about that? a rhetorical question of course, i know you haven't, since you're incapable of critical thinking, just thought i'd put it out there...
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May 21 2020 08:20am
This post is a violation of the site rules and appropriate action was taken.

Quote (fender @ May 21 2020 04:15pm)
lol, i know your reading comprehension isn't exactly stellar, but i thought that even you should have been able to follow how we arrived here: "slave labour", state-imposed forced labour in prisons (it even was mentioned in the source YOU linked - again, you obviously didn't read it, ahahaha), millions of americans incarcerated, highly incentivised by profit motives... it's not some random, unrelated 'shit', but a very relevant aspect when we talk about labour exploitation - in fact, it's the closest to ACTUAL slave labour of all the different forms of exploitation.

am i surprised to see you perform extreme mental gymnastics to pretend like incarcerating so many americans is actually a GOOD thing? no, after all you would shill for everything that happens in america, because you aren't exactly the brightest candle on the cake - but even you should have noticed that it does NOT work. you know where people actually and regularly go on 'rampages'? in the country that locks away the most.
funny how that works, isn't it? with those numbers (and all those guns for 'protection' around), you should easily be the safest country in the world - but for some 'mysterious' reason you're quite the opposite - at least in comparison to your peer countries. ever thought about that? a rhetorical question of course, i know you haven't, since you're incapable of critical thinking, just thought i'd put it out there...


LOL I know you're not exactly the brightest spark but *YOU* arrived there in post #90 after a wild post from your buddy saucepot namely post #87.

We know you're most likely suffering from some kind of disability but at least try your best to keep track of who posted what ok little fellow? Good boy
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May 21 2020 08:21am
Quote (Santara @ 21 May 2020 07:01)
"These are the countries, ranked easiest to hardest on how easily Big Labor can steamroll industry, private enterprise, and the public" ~ muh unions.

wasn’t the national-socialist workers party a union too basically lmfao it’s even in the name. no wonder fender loves that biased source so much
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