I want to be for ever opposed to what people like that peddle.

a lot of these things are hard to put into historical comparisons since we live in such a larger world with more american influence and everything being so complicated and involved
I mean if Obama does a bunch of geopolitical wranglings and billion dollar policy initiatives to spike his successor how does that compare to Jefferson calling Adams a "hideous hermaphroditical character, which has neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman." and being called "a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father." in return?

I'm calling it, decades from now this clip is going to feature in our holographic history courses as we teach how utterly fucked society became in the early 21st century
Gonna go cryogenically freeze myself in carbonite to test my hypothesis

i think historically actors put the future of our nation at risk, we're on easy street now so it's more about cheap spite. cheap spite played out on a worldwide scale with many lives in the balance, but it doesn't really undermine america they way i'm suggesting.

but i dont think we should compare obamas actions to jeffersons words, that's not really what i meant. i meant that rifts started by men like jefferson and hamilton led to govt factions that feuded for a long time, and those factions may have gone on to commit treasonous espionage as the feuds raged on. admittedly my point here is mostly so i can rant about historical issues, this topics hit a wall until we get anything more.

ALSO

Ya'll jumping to some major conclusions. Flynn calling Russia during the transitional phase isn't illegal. Why he lied about it? No clue. But the act of calling them during the transition phase isn't illegal at all, in fact it's pretty normal. So there needs to be something else before any conclusions can be made.

you mean like jumping to the conclusion that only transition period was used to contact russia? you're right that would be a jumped to conclusion at this point.

Theres an awesome article in french about that flynn indictment

http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2017/12/01/01003-20171201ARTFIG00325-l-inculpation-de-michael-flynn-menace-la-maison-blanche.php
Note the source is likely right wing conservative french newspaper, second mostly trusted in france on my eyes (with LeMonde, that more likely leftwing)


''"

The indictment of Michael Flynn threatens the White House


Indicted for lying in the investigation into possible Russian interference in the US presidential election, Trump's former counsel pleaded guilty.

From our correspondent in Washington

Dark suit and closed face, Michael Flynn left the Federal Court of Washington without a word Friday morning. He had just answered "guilty, your honor" to Judge Rudy Contreras presenting him with the indictment that he had knowingly lied to the FBI. But it is not so much his indictment as his decision to cooperate with the federal investigators that sent shockwaves to the White House.

The former general, for some time was at the head of military intelligence, who was Donald Trump's first national security advisor for 24 days, is among the most involved figures upstream in the 2016 campaign and the post-election transition . His lawyer had declared in March that he had "a story to tell", provided that he is guaranteed the leniency of justice. This has just happened, with the Special Prosecutor retaining at this stage only a relatively minor charge of indictment. Robert Mueller has also agreed to spare his son, Michael Junior, from his consulting firm and political activities.

Federal investigators do not let go of prey of the caliber of Michael Flynn without the guarantee that it will allow them to catch a bigger one. Above Flynn, there is only Donald Trump's first circle: his son Donald Jr, his son-in-law Jared Kushner and the president himself. That such a close associate returns his jacket can worry many people in the White House. According to the documents presented to the court, Flynn is ready to testify that, contrary to his initial statements, he made at least two contacts with the Russian ambassador in Washington, Sergei Kislyak. In one case, "at the request of a very senior member of the transition team". In another, reporting directly to a member of the Trump team in Mar-a-Lago, the Florida residence of the president.

While the Obama administration was about to let - exceptionally - a condemnation by the UN of Israeli settlement, Prime Minister Benyamin Netanyahu had contacted the entourage of Trump to ask him to lobby other countries to help Israel. Flynn and Kushner did it, especially with the Russians. In the second case, Flynn addressed Vladimir Putin on behalf of Donald Trump, not yet in office. Through Kislyak, he had urged him not to order retaliation for sanctions decided by Obama. The Kremlin had obeyed. "Good maneuver of V. Putin on the deadline, had tweeted Trump. I always knew he was wise.

These events, already widely suspected, are not enough to constitute a criminal "collusion", even if Trump had no official responsibility at the time. "Nothing about the plea bargain involves anyone other than Mr. Flynn," said Ty Cobb, the president's attorney. The conclusion of this phase of the Special Prosecutor's investigation demonstrates that he is moving quickly toward a reasonable conclusion. " Cobb promised Donald Trump that he would be cleared before Christmas. Conversely, the president may feel more threatened than ever. The old temptation to sack Robert Mueller could then pick him up - as she had seized Richard Nixon in the Watergate era, with the consequences that we know.

""

Trump will be proven innocent before Christmass !!

I can only go by what's been reported. If that's that major bombshell from Flynn then I could care less. The media is making that out to be the smoking gun when it's far from that.

LawfareBlog has a good analysis of what this deal with Flynn means: https://lawfareblog.com/flynn-plea-quick-and-dirty-analysis

Very salient point:



In a nutshell, Flynn has NO immunity against other potential charges, so Mueller could bring other things to bear if Flynn decides to back out of whatever deal he has agreed to with him.



From the same article:



This post was edited by Surfpunk on Dec 1 2017 04:30pm