It is not up to "The International Community" to determine national borders. There is no "International Community" at all. There are nations that have their own interests at heart. The fact that the US and EU, who are currently using Ukraine as a victim in a proxy war against Russia do not acknowledge the Republics' sovereignty is irrelevant. What IS relevant is that those republics DID declare sovereignty at the same time the legitimate government of Ukraine was overthrown. Those republics have no representation whatsoever in the Ukrainian government, and receive no resources or aid from that government.

Russia recognized the sovereignty of the Republics. Russia chose to act in their defense due to the ongoing rape, torture, and murder of their citizens and the ongoing theft of their resources. Ukraine can end the war tomorrow by withdrawing from those Republics. Done. You are actively supporting the invasion by a larger nation (Ukraine) of smaller nations (the Donbask Republics). I have it on the good authority of our VP that larger nations invading smaller nations is bad. Don't you agree?

As to who I quote, when you spread bullshit propaganda that promotes war without even hearing word one from the President of the nation you're promoting war against, your warmongering propaganda demands a response.

Don't wanna be quoted? Don't post. Welcome to online message boards, where nobody gives a shit what you want or demand. First time?

I don't try to defend Tucker's integrity. I have never watched anything by him, believe it or not. I am vaguely aware of his name from the various online forums I am on.



Wow, crushing.



Anyway, I just think that people like you try hard to convince me not to listen to anything Putin/Russia says. And you did not deny this.



I think for you to call them "talking points", you are putting a negative spin on it. You should have said something like, "Russia's perspective" or something neutral like that, it would have been less biased.

Also, you talk like having talking points is a bad thing that the Russia state does. But instead of "talking points", what do you think they should have? Every state wants to say something that frames their country in a good light, and I don't think this is propaganda. Most likely, everybody thinks what they are doing is the good thing, and this reflects in the kind of things they say about themselves. Very few people will talk bad about themselves because very few people think the thing they are engaged in is bad. So, given this, I don't know what you expect Russia to say. "We invaded Ukraine because we want to murder people!" Come on now.



Why do you think InsaneBobb is not engaged in good faith discussion? I see that he sincerely believes in what he says. And he is certainly engaged with your arguments. His responses are always directly addressing your claims, they are just things that you disagree with. It sounds to me like you are frustrated that he doesn't immediately capitulate to your side so you accuse him of not being interested in being challenged.




Naw. I don't take Bobb's side. The reason I even posted in this thread is because I saw gnarjay's garbage and felt compelled to respond.

I said Bobb has stomped you ...etc because I sensed that you couldn't counter his arguments and wanted an out.


Nah. I don't have any bias. I say this because I know very little about geopolitics. This whole Russia-Ukraine thing confuses me, to be honest. I don't have a "side". Both Russia and Ukraine are countries that I am very vaguely aware of and I would not know why they are fighting if it weren't for this thread, lol.

You are begging InsaneBobb to leave you alone.

Territory isnt taken by making declarations. International recognition is zero tenths of the law. The post Maidan coup regime in Kiev has not held any soverign claim to the DPR, LPR or Crimea for even one day of its existence. They were sundered by a revolution and western Ukraine completely failed to conquer them by force of arms. They willingly joined with Russia and were annexed by the motherland who now holds control of them. Zelensky can make as many speeches as he wants, it doesn't give him control. And no amount of faux moralizing will change that. Ukraine needed to win a war to seize those lands, and lost.

I am politely asking him. Correct. I don't see how that's any of your concern. You can make your own arguments, you're a big boy, aren't you? It's like unsubscribing from a propaganda newsletter. I don't see where the problem is. They haven't made a single good faith attempt to engage in a serious debate, just revisionist talking points straight from Putin's propaganda play book. Bobb's posts are virtually indistinguishable from Russian state run media.

And just before you claim I insulted you again, or that I am spreading American propaganda, remember that I reject their corporate media and called Kyiv's reporting propaganda as well. Bobb and I are not the same. My main concern is innocent people's lives. His is the furtherance of Russian propaganda trying to justify the military invasion of Ukraine.

You claim I'm parroting Russian state media, yet that can't possibly be true, can it? Not only do I not even know where to go to find Russian State Media, I don't speak Russian and couldn't understand it.

Part of the issue with the nature of your posts is that you dismiss facts outright, then accuse whoever you are speaking with of being revisionist. Is it your claim that the Maidan Coup did not occur? Is it your claim that Crimea and the Republics did not split from Ukraine, of their own accord, rather than submit to the illegitimate government that overthrew the legitimate government of Ukraine? Is it your claim that Ukrainian military forces, primarily Asov, has NOT been attacking these republics, raping, torturing, and murdering their citizens since 2014? These are not revisionist talking points. These are well-documented facts.

You claim I do not wish to engage in a good faith discussion, yet that is precisely what I'm doing. And once again, when you post, you will be quoted, and your propaganda corrected. If you do not wish anyone to quote you, try sticking to the truth.

Like, the simple statement, "I hate Russia and support war against them" wouldn't be questioned. Legitimately, I wouldn't quote or respond to it, because I know that reason and rationality is beyond you. Instead, you're trying to claim that the propaganda fed to the world by Ukraine and Western Media is correct, without hearing anything from Russia at all. That's kind of weird, don't you think?

Once again, if you don't want quoted, don't post.

Crimea is ethnically Russian, and was taken over with what appears to be genuine enthusiasm. The Donbass took up arms in the aftermath of Maidan, when Yanukovych was thrown out by pro-West rebels in Kiev. The Donbass has probably lost the most of every region in Ukraine and Russia, as they've been mobilized and fighting against the present Ukrainian government from the beginning. Why would Ukraine want to rule over a population that clearly despised them?

This post was edited by bogie160 on Feb 7 2024 09:29pm

That is just Russian propaganda. Did you jump to a different account because I blocked you, Bobb? It's you, right?

Some facts before I block your multi too: Neither Donbass nor Crimea were independent entities. They belonged to Ukraine, and Russia invaded them militarily. Neither all the Russia friendly presidents previously nor the western friendly presidents recently mean that Ukrainian territory suddenly belongs to a different nation. Not to America, not to Russia, not to some made up Republic. That's not how that works. A region doesn't magically become independent by fake referendum. It's a process that involves internationally recognized votes and observers, not unmarked hostile troops occupying political infrastructure by force.

Guy with 20 posts accuses someone that has been posting on here over 10 years to be a multi. Kek

Accusing long standing members of being multis when you are posting in pard within 24 hours of joining the site is pretty rich. I'm still curious what your primary account is. Care to share? I assume it's got a warn, or you'd probably be posting with it.

You are once again ignoring the facts. The Maidan coup or Maidan revolution was the overthrow of the legitimate Ukrainian government. The rebels who overthrew that government inserted themselves as the new government. Crimea and the Donbask Republics refused to submit to the rebel government and declared their independence. Ukraine has been conducting war against them since 2014 in an attempt to assert control.

The war did not start within the last few years. The war against the Donbask Republics has been ongoing since 2014. The rebel government of Ukraine rules Ukraine via conquest. The rebel government of Ukraine did NOT conquer the Donbask Republics or Crimea, therefore they have no right whatsoever to claim they are a part of Ukraine. The Republics and Crimea all invited Russia in, and indeed officially applied for Protectorate status from Russia.

These are all facts. You are perfectly welcome to insist that you do not recognize the sovereignty of these nations. But it's not up to you. Nor is it up to the US. Today's "Ukraine" did not exist prior to 2014. Old Ukraine was partially conquered. Those parts that were not conquered are not property of the conquerers who failed to conquer them. They're property of the citizens of those Republics.

And the nature of the overthrow of the Ukrainian government, and the failure of the rebel government in power to secure former treaties with Russia is the other reason why any claims that Russia is violating treaties is bullshit. The government of Ukraine that signed those treaties is gone. They were overthrown. The current government of Ukraine has no treaties with Russia. Or with the Donbask Republics. Or with Crimea.

Once again, you're welcome to hate Russia and want to go to war with them for any or no reason. Try being honest about it though, rather than making shit up.