Quote (justhackitup @ Mar 11 2022 02:11pm)

Well, I see it like this. American imperialism is a good thing, by default.

Quote (Lebanon961 @ Mar 12 2022 12:24pm)

Why is it a good thing?
Do you mean it is good for Americans or the rest of the world?

Quote (justhackitup @ Mar 12 2022 10:24pm)

America has created upward mobility unseen in a lot of the world. While the government is growing too fast, it inherently doesn’t rule people. A lot of the world is really poor and underdeveloped for 2022. You can break in, get a free education, get housing and tax rebate help, you don’t break into places worse than where ya left. Willing to be a lifelong criminal, people choose here over pretty much everywhere. That’s due largely to how we operate as a country and society. We work too much (some of us), we push the limits, we have lotteries where you can just become rich if you’re lucky spending a few bucks. When people you think are worse off, start avoiding the area, that’s when it’s too late. As always, follow the money. You can just make more here in so many ways than so many places.

Quote (Lebanon961 @ Mar 11 2022 11:24am)

Many Americans on PARD and elsewhere often come back to the argument that America is defending "democracies", or "free countries". Or that invading a democracy is worse than invading another kind of regime.
For example, invading Iraq is not like invading Ukraine because Ukraine is a "democracy" (according to some).

Such a line of thought is often used behind a veil of political pragmatism and rational strategic calculus.
Other times the same line of thought is employed ideologically, that somehow America is doing "good" by helping "democracies".

Most American posters here have at least some idea about modern history, about how things work in the real world etc...
Most of you know that the American administration, driven by self-interest, has overthrown democracies, and supported brutal repressive regimes. There is no need to get into examples.

My question is, how come the argument for "democracies" is used so often by people who know better?
I can understand the MSM talking points to the masses... but hearing it from the more intellectually literate triggers my bullshitometer.

What is the deal?
Is it a rationalization for the idealists?
Is it a useful lie for the pragmatist that gets repeated as a patriotic initiative?
Am I missing something that hopefully will be pointed out?

I would really like to understand this case of well-informed people repeating something that does not make sense.

Quote (Lebanon961 @ Mar 11 2022 12:24pm)

Many Americans on PARD and elsewhere often come back to the argument that America is defending "democracies", or "free countries". Or that invading a democracy is worse than invading another kind of regime.
For example, invading Iraq is not like invading Ukraine because Ukraine is a "democracy" (according to some).

Such a line of thought is often used behind a veil of political pragmatism and rational strategic calculus.
Other times the same line of thought is employed ideologically, that somehow America is doing "good" by helping "democracies".

Most American posters here have at least some idea about modern history, about how things work in the real world etc...
Most of you know that the American administration, driven by self-interest, has overthrown democracies, and supported brutal repressive regimes. There is no need to get into examples.

My question is, how come the argument for "democracies" is used so often by people who know better?
I can understand the MSM talking points to the masses... but hearing it from the more intellectually literate triggers my bullshitometer.

What is the deal?
Is it a rationalization for the idealists?
Is it a useful lie for the pragmatist that gets repeated as a patriotic initiative?
Am I missing something that hopefully will be pointed out?

I would really like to understand this case of well-informed people repeating something that does not make sense.

Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Mar 12 2022 10:10pm)

Not american but it's clear that Iraq destruction in 2003 was definitely a war crime for foreign influence (also helping Israel far right gov) since US killed a million civilians and hundred(s) thousands children by destroying bridges, water, electricity etc... Even ruining literacy and women equality that was about to make Iraq a really strong country in this region.
And later largely provoked ISIS chaos, Syria... Yemen. Some day they could pay it back, especially with nuclear proliferation.

As European i hope we take our distances asap with US on defense, Ukraine war could boost it, and we are not stupid: it's obvious that US are calculating the war in a way that could weaken EU too.
Our politics are plenty aware of it, and the most important: many europeans are aware of it too.

Still, this is not really possible to do a comparison with Ukraine which is democracy in progress that didnt invade anyone. Vs Saddam Iraq.

Usually Americans of this sub will shut their mouth when it's about 2003 iraq war. I'll stop beating the dead horse now ;)

Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Mar 12 2022 11:10pm)

Not american but it's clear that Iraq destruction in 2003 was definitely a war crime for foreign influence (also helping Israel far right gov) since US killed a million civilians and hundred(s) thousands children by destroying bridges, water, electricity etc... Even ruining literacy and women equality that was about to make Iraq a really strong country in this region.
And later largely provoked ISIS chaos, Syria... Yemen. Some day they could pay it back, especially with nuclear proliferation.

As European i hope we take our distances asap with US on defense, Ukraine war could boost it, and we are not stupid: it's obvious that US are calculating the war in a way that could weaken EU too.
Our politics are plenty aware of it, and the most important: many europeans are aware of it too.

Still, this is not really possible to do a comparison with Ukraine which is democracy in progress that didnt invade anyone. Vs Saddam Iraq.

Usually Americans of this sub will shut their mouth when it's about 2003 iraq war. I'll stop beating the dead horse now ;)