Quote (CyrusTheGreat @ Dec 27 2021 06:01pm)

Hello,

While I will never be able to help with the assurance that a higher power is 100% real (neither can evolutionists assure their theory is 100% real either), I usually default to this very simple question which makes logical sense.

Our earth is just the right distance from the sun to harbor how many different life forms? A fraction closer, and we'd be KFC. A fraction further away, and we'd be ice cream bars. That doesn't even begin to take into account all of the extremely intricate mechanisms that go into sustaining the earth itself, providing a constant stream of necessary "air" (for multiple lifeforms -- not everything breathes oxygen and flora actually make use of our exhales to create more oxygen), the internal workings of bodies and the astounding number of biological complexities that go into the creation of new life. There are thousands of other intricacies perfectly planned to "keep earth spinning" that aren't mentioned here as well, as it would be an entire novel.

When I think of that, I ask myself -- does it take more faith to believe all of this occurred out of the random explosion from a single dot in space for some reason at some point, or that perhaps, just maybe, a higher power had some sort of involvement in this?

Logic kind of answers that for me.

Quote (Erodish @ Dec 27 2021 07:21pm)

I have to say I really appreciate both of your posts, the response to myself and this. Happy to have you engaging in my thread. I appreciate your input.

Quote (WiziLiCe @ Dec 27 2021 07:27pm)

Do you believe we are here alone in this vastly immense universe? Would you not expect there to be other planets capable of harvesting life?

Complicated and intricate organisms, who seem to be 'just right', being merely a byproduct of the universe in which they formed, is not something farfetched. I think we lose perspective by not understanding the scale (both in time and space of where we are - the universe). Personally, I would also not expect a 'greater power's involvement' to commit such nonsensical mistakes (which evolutionary theory do provide an explanation); beating a dead giraffe.. Google laryngeal nerve

Quote (CyrusTheGreat @ Dec 27 2021 06:13pm)

Well, you're most certainly free to explain what is exactly false about what I said. I welcome it, honestly, as the exchange of ideas is something seemingly lost in modern day.

However, simply calling things fallacies doesn't make them false.

Perhaps a few starter questions will get us moving:


- scientists have spent decades trying to disprove the higher power theory by finding life on other planets -- I have not read of any success stories -- have you? Theories such as possible, unconfirmed life on Europa unfortunately wouldn't qualify.

- which other planet has the correct mixture of atmospheric gases to support the vast life forms we have on earth, without any special technology needed (mars may hit 65-70 during the day sometimes, but there is no air to breathe and at night with no atmosphere, it drops into the negative-one-hundreds.

- what facts have evolution theorists provided that negate the existence of a higher power without question?

I eagerly await your response - I am genuinely interested in hearing your side, so please feel free to share in more detail :)

Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Dec 27 2021 07:32pm)

Scientists have not spent decades trying to disprove a higher power. The fallacy here is that you can't prove a negative. This would be like saying "Scientists have spent decades trying to disprove electricity-carrying gremlins, and they haven't ever done it".

-- but in fact they have -- that is their entire basis for continuing to push evolution that they can't prove, finding other life out there that they have had no success with, etc. These goals and behaviors are simply documented fact -- i'd have a hard time believing otherwise, but, you're free to provide sources that show otherwise.

The fine-tuning fallacy is so old at this point that it's frankly embarrasing that you would bring it up. All environments that support life will appear to be fine tuned by definition. If they don't then you won't have life in the first place.

-- well, then what other planet or solar system(s) (Environments as you have stated above) have we found that support life? That was indeed one of my overall points.

"Evolution theorists" don't have to negate the existence of a higher power. Again, you're asking them to prove a negative.

-- See #1 -- they don't negate it because they have no ability to prove it. Their life's work is to try and negate it (with centuries of no success) -- that was my point.

If you were actually open to honest discussion you wouldn't just be repeating fallacies that have been repeated for over 100 years at this point. You'd actually do your own searching and have come across these answers before. All of your objections have been raised and defeated thousands of times at this point.

-- I did do my own research. It's why I believe what I do :). I may be wrong, sure. But in the end, if I am, how exactly am I going to know the difference once this life ends?

Quote (CyrusTheGreat @ Dec 27 2021 06:38pm)

I added my responses in bold above :)

Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Dec 27 2021 07:43pm)

Evolution is in no way contradictory with the existence of any higher power. Even the Catholic church acknowledges that. You are creating a false dichotomy.

-- Well, im not catholic and yes, the definition of evolution we are speaking of most certainly does contradict a higher power. Perhaps you are thinking of natural selection, which is indeed a real thing?

You are making a falllacious argument. Stop trying to deflect back to "but there aren't others that support life". Acknowledge you are using fallacious reasoning and move on.

-- Well, you did say that all environments are designed to support their inherited lifeforms (or something to that effect -- I am not quoting you directly). I simply answered accordingly. It isn't a fallacy to state that the same accepted science that pushes the theory of evolution is concise that we have found no other life out there to date.

You "did your own research", but you are dishonest. As I've demonstrated already. You are provably wrong on every argument, and yet you still cling to the conclusions.

-- Yep, I sure did and stand firm. I gave a very descriptive reasoning as to why in my initial post. If you believe otherwise, that's your right, but, I would need far more than assertions that I am wrong without evidence to be swayed anywhere.

Not gonna waste my time rehashing the same arguments over and over. You are not interested in discussion or you would already acknowledge your flaws in reasoning. You are interested in preaching and making it look like discussion.

-- I don't go to church and am definitely not a pastor. Have a nice evening :)

Quote (CyrusTheGreat @ Dec 27 2021 06:51pm)

Responses added above :)

Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Dec 27 2021 08:02pm)

Evolution does not contradict the idea of a higher power. A higher power can just as easily create through evolution as he could through snapping things into existence. It may contradict *your idea* of a higher power, but not the notion entirely.

-- Human intelligence / capability can "evolve", of course -- a very primitive example of this is that we didn't have cars once and now we do. I speak of the evolutionary theory that relies on the big-bang/humans evolving from apes for relevance and not a "higher power".
-- I also don't have a specific idea of a "higher power", moreso just belief, with good reason, that one exists.

Environments are not designed to support their lifeforms. Life forms change to match their environments, or the life forms die. When you find a life form it is suited to its environment, or you haven't found a life form because it died a long long time ago.

-- I don't follow, honestly. Yes, there are slight variational adaptations people become accustomed to (as in hotter vs. colder weather), but I don't think I have ever read a study of a lifeform adapting to the climate of Venus, Mercury, or mars.

I gave concise descriptions of why you are wrong, and you have so far refused to listen. I couldn't care less if you go to church or are a pastor. You are wrong, and you aren't here to have an honest discussion. You are here to preach. The fact that you are still making the same arguments that were debunked long before you were born even though I know for a fact you've been exposed to the answers before shows you are dishonest.

-- Honestly, you've just said i'm wrong more than once, but, I don't see any evidence proving so. It's honestly because neither one of us can come from a direction of a guarantee. I don't guarantee anything I am saying -- I am simply saying that my research has led me other than yours has.

You have a good one too. Mery Christmas. It's the most capitalist holiday of the year!

-- Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you indeed!
-- The money I spend on my kids (and their sister who isn't mine but her dad abandoned her) every year is painful indeed. It's a lot, but, I just remain thankful that I am fortunate enough to be able to afford that, live a good life and maintain my donations to St. Jude's and Shriner's every month. Between my payroll deductions and my capitalist company's matching, they get $100/$70 a month respectively which I hope makes a difference at some point.