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Nov 1 2021 07:56am
Quote (Santara @ Nov 1 2021 08:54am)
They're not "free relations" when the letter of the law mandates a single union represent an entire shop if 51% of workers vote for a union. As many unions as laborers wish to have should be allowed into any shop.


That's part of the aforementioned Nordic model.

Regardless of your feelings on any particular thing, on balance unions are disfavored in the U.S. Our low union participation rate compared to other countries is testament to that.
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Nov 1 2021 10:13am
Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 1 2021 08:01am)
automation


this man needs to be killed to prevent the rise of the machines :o
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Nov 1 2021 10:19am
for real tho supply/demand measurements of labor were very very accurate until super recently, and was only nominally affected by even previous waves of automation from the industrial revolution to more modern times.
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Nov 1 2021 11:25am
Completely unrelated personal pet peeve: there is no Nobel Prize in economics. The Bank of Sweden created a prize "in honor of Alfred Nobel" in the late 1960s, trying to capitalize on the prestige of the prizes in the hard sciences and create something similar for economics. Economics is scientific mainly in the sense that many of its claims are at least falsifiable. So falsifiable, in fact, that they are demonstrably false.

I'll comment a bit on your hypothesis on the causes of all this. As a general rule, it is best not to attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence or inability. It's not "business interests" that causes these issues here, it's fundamental limits on what is possible with the data and mathematics that exist. The micro foundations that underlie economics theories are long since falsified. No one has any kind of real idea of how to accurately model the actual way that humans make decisions. The tools just don't exist. The best approximations anyone comes up with are easily rejected when they come into contact with actual data, unless you want only the roughest of sketches. Even pretending that existing models are accurate reflections of reality, the data does not actually measure the things that would be needed in order to properly calibrate the model. You end up with proxies of proxies of proxies for fitting all the parameters.
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Nov 1 2021 11:48am
Quote (duffman316 @ Nov 1 2021 12:13pm)
this man needs to be killed to prevent the rise of the machines :o


I think during the past 6 months we crossed a threshold and its too late to stop automation -

Because big companies have colluded to make it seem like there is a labor shortage.

All of the companies are going to push for immigrant slave labor and automation now, you see it in all of their public statements.

This post was edited by EndlessSky on Nov 1 2021 11:49am
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Nov 1 2021 11:54am
Quote (EndlessSky @ Nov 1 2021 10:48am)
I think during the past 6 months we crossed a threshold and its too late to stop automation -

Because big companies have colluded to make it seem like there is a labor shortage.

All of the companies are going to push for immigrant slave labor and automation now, you see it in all of their public statements.


Nah it started the day people realized they could get PPP loan forgiveness while retaining a skeleton crew and profit massively from it
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Nov 1 2021 11:54am
Quote (darkfire @ Nov 1 2021 12:25pm)
Completely unrelated personal pet peeve: there is no Nobel Prize in economics. The Bank of Sweden created a prize "in honor of Alfred Nobel" in the late 1960s, trying to capitalize on the prestige of the prizes in the hard sciences and create something similar for economics. Economics is scientific mainly in the sense that many of its claims are at least falsifiable. So falsifiable, in fact, that they are demonstrably false.

I'll comment a bit on your hypothesis on the causes of all this. As a general rule, it is best not to attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence or inability. It's not "business interests" that causes these issues here, it's fundamental limits on what is possible with the data and mathematics that exist. The micro foundations that underlie economics theories are long since falsified. No one has any kind of real idea of how to accurately model the actual way that humans make decisions. The tools just don't exist. The best approximations anyone comes up with are easily rejected when they come into contact with actual data, unless you want only the roughest of sketches. Even pretending that existing models are accurate reflections of reality, the data does not actually measure the things that would be needed in order to properly calibrate the model. You end up with proxies of proxies of proxies for fitting all the parameters.


It was created "in honor of Alfred Nobel", but it is still administered by The Nobel Foundation, so I don't think there's much of an argument to be made to not shorten it to "Nobel prize in Economics"

I disagree that it's not business interests. We know the exact names of the people and organizations that lobby against the minimum wage increases, and who influence economics departments.
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Nov 1 2021 12:07pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Nov 1 2021 01:54pm)
It was created "in honor of Alfred Nobel", but it is still administered by The Nobel Foundation, so I don't think there's much of an argument to be made to not shorten it to "Nobel prize in Economics"

I disagree that it's not business interests. We know the exact names of the people and organizations that lobby against the minimum wage increases, and who influence economics departments.


It's just a personal pet peeve. The attempt to siphon credibility from the hard sciences clearly worked. Shorten it however you like. I maintain that there is no Nobel Prize in Economics ;)

I spent a while in a fairly highly ranked PhD program in economics before doing something else with my life. Plenty of my friends are active academic economists. I've got a pretty good sense of how the sausage gets made. That's really not how it works. If the evidence clearly said that minimum wage increases have no impact, no amount of lobbying would suppress that. The issue is that the data is never really clear in economics.
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Nov 1 2021 12:19pm
Quote (darkfire @ Nov 1 2021 10:25am)
As a general rule, it is best not to attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence or inability.


You must be a white person. White people tend to be very trusting. Their first impulse is to see the good in everybody. They find it difficult to believe that there are people out there who are genuinely bad. People who are out to hurt them. They have a hard time imagining this.

While I generally find white people's trusting-ness to be very endearing, I have to say that this can cause their demise, if they are not careful.
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Nov 1 2021 12:19pm
Quote (Sh00p @ Nov 1 2021 07:18am)
I love how a lot of people seem to think this is some outrageously difficult dilemma that takes only the smartest people to even converse about.

Its not. Just pay your fucking workers so they can eat and continue working for you. It's really, really not hard. And the topics that should be discussed are why so many refuse to do this simple thing and what we're going to do about it. But 'Ooh Jingly jingly awards time guys.'


https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect



Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Nov 1 2021 02:54am)
This year's nobel prize in Economics has been awarded. As I was listening to / reading about it, I couldn't help but feel a lot of the results were pretty obvious, even before the studies.

The idea that labor can be treated with a supply and demand curve similar to elastic goods should have never even been a consideration in economics, and I can't stress enough how much of an indictment of the field it is that examining this this was Nobel-Prize worthy.

I'll give a basic background and explain why I feel this way.

David Card was one of the winners of the nobel prize for "for his empirical contributions to labour economics". Specifically, his publications which showed "... among other things, that increasing the minimum wage does not necessarily lead to fewer jobs."
His experiments were accomplished by examining the labor market in 1992 after a raise of minimum wage in New Jersey. The same restaurant chains in similar geographic areas with the same corporate structure did not reduce employment even after a raise of minimum wage on the New Jersey side from 4.25 $/hour to 5.05 $/hour.

A laborer on average does not make a wage that is equal to the amount of monetary value they produce for the employer. If this happens, no business would hire anybody. Period. End of story. Hiring would never be profitable. In the real world wages are far lower because they are profit-oriented, and wages are depressed by labor competition.

Since the laborer does not make a wage that is equal to or above the value they produce, they will always produce value for the business. If hiring staff will increase the amount of value generated for the business, the person will be hired. It doesn't matter if the person makes 10x their wage for the business, or if the person makes 1.1x their wage for the business. As long as, on average, the position makes money for the business after all considerations, the position will be retained. If the position can be eliminated and the business will only lose 0.75 the value of the laborer, the position will likely be eliminated. (This is an over-simplification, but will hold on-average for an efficient economy over a sufficient period of time)

So we see a contradiction here. If minimum wage increases 50%, but all of the workers that were previously below the new minimum wage are still below the "positive value threshold", then their position will not be eliminated. The thing is, virtually every laborer produces several multiples of their cost for businesses. Even in labor-heavy industries, like fast-food and supermarkets, national chains could afford to double or triple worker wages and still make a massive profit. I've done the calculation on the forum before that Wal-Mart could quadruple every person's wage and would still be profitable. So the idea that modest minimum wage increases, even doubling of minimum wages, would have a significant impact on employment has always been ridiculous.



IMO it's easy to understand why this knowledge has been suppressed, and we still hear about how minimum wage increases will kill jobs. There's a lot of money on the line, so research that says otherwise is hyped, and research that doesn't is suppressed. Business and economics departments all over the country are massively compromised by business interests, and while they don't write "Only libertarians" on their grants, the soft power they push to down play this kind of research is significant.

https://cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf - Summary from 2013 with papers and meta-analysis going back to the 90's.


So what are your thoughts? I'm sure ^thesnipa will chime in about automation, but this has implications going back to before the 90's, so there's plenty to discuss outside of the consequences of automation.


This was my favorite video so far. It also has implications for immigrants, but that's not the part I'm interested in right now. Even when you increase the labor market by 7% it doesn't depress wages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BqLnRGOyDo


Case studies which show little / no impact on employment aren't suppressed, in contrast they're quoted ad nauseum by sympathetic media outlets.

Higher labor costs get passed on to the business, which adjust through a combination of reduced employment (either net headcount or hours), lower profitability, and higher prices. Where alternatives to labor exist, companies pursue automation. Automated check-outs and self-ordering at fast-food / coffee shops has exploded over the past few years. It's certainly possible that there are situations in which businesses can't reduce employment easily, and in which most of the costs are either pushed onto consumers or eaten by the business itself. And there are scenarios where existing operations are maintained, given that there's a cost to reallocating capital at the expense of existing growth. Calculating profitability is complex. But the notion that costs will be eaten entirely by the business, and not by either employment or consumers, is likely just as wrong as the inverse.
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