d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > The State Of Sex Offender Laws
Prev123Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 14,099
Joined: Jul 13 2006
Gold: 83.30
May 10 2021 10:31am
Public sex offender registry is retarded. Get rid of it imo. Too many cases of people getting their lives ruined over minor stuff like peeing in public.

People who are sexually violent should be either interned in long-term facilities or under strong surveillance through rehabilitation. Some of them might never be able to reintegrate into society, in which case they should stay there.

To be sure that sex offenders don't get dangerous jobs, we have something called a VOG (Certificate of Conduct). Basically to work somewhere you have to request this at the Ministry of Justice. They will see whether you have infractions on your rap sheet that complicate the job you apply for.

IE sex offenders won't be able to teach in school, frauds won't be able to work at a bank, etc.
Member
Posts: 92,993
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,299.94
May 10 2021 10:34am
Quote (EndlessSky @ May 10 2021 11:26am)
China is going to the moon. Meanwhile we are wasting out time on people that serve us no value. This seems appropriate.

The only issue is that a HUGE proportion of sex crimes are gay when an older man hooks up with a 14-16 year old. These crimes are less severe than touching a kid, because at that age the men are pubescent, but they are still wrong and involve an inability to consent. A middle path for these cases might be appropriate with jail time and an offender status.



I disagree. Situations like that damage the entire civilization. Because of ideologies like that we see 60% of black women raped before the age of 18.


damage to society =/= all damage to society is equal

it's true that sex crimes of all kinds are a cancer in society. but some cancers you treat differently than others.
Member
Posts: 52,226
Joined: Jan 3 2009
Gold: 8,902.00
May 10 2021 04:31pm
Quote (Handcuffs @ May 9 2021 10:25pm)
tl;dr: fuck you. read the post or at least watch the videos. PaRD is a low-effort clownfest and it won't hurt you to read more than a single sentence at a time.

Hi PaRD, let's explore your thoughts on sex offender laws as they currently exist. While certainly tricky in that sex offense (and offender) laws vary state-to-state, there are some commonalities that are being met with discourse around their efficacy, utility, and constitutionality. In particular, these include residency restrictions as part of reintegration contingencies after someone is found guilty of a sex offense as well as involuntary civil commitment (which ~20 states have) in situations where a person (who has completed their prison sentence) is deemed unfit for reintegration as a result of a mental health diagnosis (typically a combination of meeting DSM-5 criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder + a paraphilia, such as Pedophilic Disorder/NOS Hebephilia. Note: The use of "NOS hebephilia" is extremely controversial).

The residency restrictions are intended to prevent people who have a history of sexual offense to live in close proximity to children, with the distance varying by state and with further variance across counties. Recently, Florida has been looked at as a primary example of the challenges involved with the real-world application of these laws--specifically in Miami-Dade County. Florida has a minimum 1,000 feet restriction from places such as schools, parks, daycare centers, etc., and Miami-Dade County has a heightened restriction of 2,500 feet. This resulted in people being released from Miami-Dade prisons and struggling to find any housing that actually met these restrictions. As a result, ~50 - 100 people who are registered as a sex offender in the state ended up living under the Julia Tuttle Causeway--an overpass in Miami. This led to the formation of a homeless encampment as people struggled to establish any level of reintegration, with governmental agencies collectively pointing the finger at one another to explain why this was happening. The coverage of this story was met with most people being apathetic about the situation due to the nature of their offenses; however, it did spark the discourse about whether this is a just way for the criminal justice system to operate. Additionally, it calls into question whether people are actually more likely to reoffend due to the low quality of life that they have outside of prison. The restriction has become so untenable for many people with a sex offense that it has resulted in the formation of specific communities, such as Miracle Village--residential area started by Matthew 25 Ministries specifically for people with sex offenses on their record. They currently have ~200 people living in Miracle Village at this time, which is well-below the need as they only accept 1 out of every 20 applications that they get. Some argue that these restrictions are antithetical to the spirit of criminal reform and are so restrictive that they infringe on the civil rights of people with a history of sex offense. Others say that it's necessary to prevent (or at least lessen) the risk of re-offense and that people should have thought about this before they committed a sex offense.

Another topic of heated discourse within this realm is about the utility and constitutionality of involuntary civil commitment. For this, Minnesota has been highlighted as a prime example to focus on, with an involuntary civil commitment process for sex offenses that has been in operation for ~25 years now. The State argues that it is a necessary part of the criminal justice system for individuals who have completed their sentence but who, as a result of a mental health diagnosis, are deemed unfit for reintegration. This results in a quasi-imprisoned life at a facility where, in theory, they're supposed to be receiving mental health treatment with the intention/hope of release and reintegration. Critics of this practice argue the constitutionality of holding someone for possible future recidivism, which isn't present with those who have other kinds of offenses. Additionally, critics in Minnesota specifically note that their civil commitment facilities have housed hundreds of people with sex offense records since 1995 and yet not a single person (at least up to 2016) had been released. This called into question not only the constitutionality of civil commitment, but also the psychometric efficacy of the treatment programs that were being utilized. Needless to say, a success rate of 0% over a 20 year period is abysmal. The State, however, contends that only ~4% of people found guilty of a sex offense end up in a civil commitment program, and that it is reserved for people who (due to a mental health diagnosis) are deemed unfit for reintegration. Critics, however, further note that there are people currently in Minnesota civil commitment facilities for sex offenses that they committed when they were adolescents. The available research into adolescent v. adult sex offense is pretty illuminating in that ~97% of adolescent sex offenders do not go on to reoffend after a legal entanglement + mental health treatment. Similar to Florida, the reporting in Minnesota led to most people being apathetic, but there was enough of a criticism that the state has reviewed its civil commitment procedures and within the past ~4 years has been looking at who they can safely release.

What are your thoughts, PaRD? More resources here and below:

Florida residency restrictions and those living under the Julia Tuttle Causeway:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=852ZyRIPdjI


IIRC, Minnesota's Supreme Court told the state they may no longer continue to indefinitely commit people civilly due to that abysmal performance, but they keep doing it anyways. State gonna state. Speaking specifically to our model, I think that if civil commitment isn't handed down as part of your original sentence, it should be legally null and void to effect what is a de facto indefinite sentence-extension.

And no, the state shouldn't be in the business of killing anybody, regardless of what they've done. Yes, attacking a child is an aggravating factor, and should be considered when rendering a harsher sentence, but no, there should not be an automatic death sentence. Just a couple days ago, the NYT did a story on Arkansas executing a person who was convicted of a murder that it turns out, he didn't commit. But due to a long train of errors, abuses, and incompetence, his case plodded its slow way to completion. It wasn't until after his death that his sister was able to have the murder weapon DNA tested, and it had another man's DNA on it. Prosecutors don't so much seek justice, they take the case as presented by cops and build a prosecution around it.
Member
Posts: 12,349
Joined: Jul 22 2007
Gold: 84.67
Warn: 10%
May 10 2021 04:55pm
Quote (thesnipa @ May 10 2021 12:01pm)
sex offender post-jail penalties need to be stratified more than they currently are, if you bang a 16 year old as a 24 year old you're not a danger to elementary schools.


And then theres the whole treating 17 year 364 day olds as "children" when a day later they are MAGICALLY adults that are completely incapable of being taken advantage of physically, mentally, or emotionally.

The united states is completely incapable of making laws correctly. On any subject. Why should we expect anything but complete partisan garbage from the US justice system, and if left to it's own devices "Sex Offender" law would simply animorph into something completely different.
Member
Posts: 22,440
Joined: Mar 3 2007
Gold: 96.11
May 11 2021 05:42pm
Quote (EndlessSky @ May 10 2021 07:49am)
Props to handcuffs for making real threads instead of one line youtube video posts.


:wub:

Quote (balrog66 @ May 10 2021 09:31am)
Public sex offender registry is retarded. Get rid of it imo. Too many cases of people getting their lives ruined over minor stuff like peeing in public.

People who are sexually violent should be either interned in long-term facilities or under strong surveillance through rehabilitation. Some of them might never be able to reintegrate into society, in which case they should stay there.

To be sure that sex offenders don't get dangerous jobs, we have something called a VOG (Certificate of Conduct). Basically to work somewhere you have to request this at the Ministry of Justice. They will see whether you have infractions on your rap sheet that complicate the job you apply for.

IE sex offenders won't be able to teach in school, frauds won't be able to work at a bank, etc.


I agree that the sex offender registry ought to be done away with. I'm not sure what benefit it actually plays for society to have such a public registry, especially since there are isolated incidences in which people have harassed people that they find on the list (including to the point of murdering them).

In terms of people who can't be safely reintegrated, many people question then the treatment we offer since it seems to be near-completely ineffective for those currently being treated. Either the treatment then needs to be reformed, or we need to develop an entirely different conceptualization of this system. As it stands, when you have a civil commitment process that has ~0% success rate, then it just is merely a fancy, legal way of saying 'exile'.
Member
Posts: 53,552
Joined: Mar 6 2008
Gold: 1,908.33
May 11 2021 05:52pm
I agree there are serious problems with it including failure to adequately differentiate dangerous predators from people with minor or technical offenses.

Quote (Handcuffs @ May 11 2021 07:42pm)
:wub:

I agree that the sex offender registry ought to be done away with. I'm not sure what benefit it actually plays for society to have such a public registry, especially since there are isolated incidences in which people have harassed people that they find on the list (including to the point of murdering them).

In terms of people who can't be safely reintegrated, many people question then the treatment we offer since it seems to be near-completely ineffective for those currently being treated. Either the treatment then needs to be reformed, or we need to develop an entirely different conceptualization of this system. As it stands, when you have a civil commitment process that has ~0% success rate, then it just is merely a fancy, legal way of saying 'exile'.


I would say there is some benefit to having it for serious offenders so people can be cautious and aware of the situation.
State mafia (or someone else) might think someone 'did their time' or could be reintegrated, but its not a knowable and clear yes or no thing.

alternative suggestion: Hire someone to be like this guy

Member
Posts: 22,440
Joined: Mar 3 2007
Gold: 96.11
May 11 2021 06:30pm
Quote (Santara @ May 10 2021 03:31pm)
IIRC, Minnesota's Supreme Court told the state they may no longer continue to indefinitely commit people civilly due to that abysmal performance, but they keep doing it anyways. State gonna state. Speaking specifically to our model, I think that if civil commitment isn't handed down as part of your original sentence, it should be legally null and void to effect what is a de facto indefinite sentence-extension.

And no, the state shouldn't be in the business of killing anybody, regardless of what they've done. Yes, attacking a child is an aggravating factor, and should be considered when rendering a harsher sentence, but no, there should not be an automatic death sentence. Just a couple days ago, the NYT did a story on Arkansas executing a person who was convicted of a murder that it turns out, he didn't commit. But due to a long train of errors, abuses, and incompetence, his case plodded its slow way to completion. It wasn't until after his death that his sister was able to have the murder weapon DNA tested, and it had another man's DNA on it. Prosecutors don't so much seek justice, they take the case as presented by cops and build a prosecution around it.


My understanding of Minnesota was that in 2015 it was deemed unconstitutional in US District Court in 2015 (Karsjens et al. v. Minnesota Department of Human Services et al.); however, this decision was overturned in 2017 by the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals and the MSOP program was deemed constitutional. So, there was a small window period in which the 2015 decision, set down by Judge Donovan Frank, where the State was ordered to do the following:

Quote
"On October 28, 2015, Judge Frank responded with an order that directed the state to assess the risk of every one of the more than 700 offenders currently committed to the St. Peter and Moose Lake facilities; the order also established a time line for compliance. In addition, it required the creation of a plan to conduct annual individual assessments. The state must also ensure that less restrictive alternatives are available to accommodate individuals found eligible for a reduction in custody. Those found eligible for discharge must be provided transitional services and discharge planning needed to facilitate the individual's successful transition into the community".


The State didn't completely do this though because they believed the program was constitutional, appealed the decision, and also sought a stay on Judge Frank's ruling. They did, however, increase the amount of assessments, evaluations, and conditional releases they conducted during this 2-year period.

After 8th Circuit decision though, my understanding is that the only next available option left would be to appeal to the US Supreme Court, which ultimately denied to hear the case.

https://www.lrl.mn.gov/guides/guides?issue=msop

This post was edited by Handcuffs on May 11 2021 06:31pm
Member
Posts: 54,209
Joined: Feb 15 2006
Gold: 62,147.21
May 11 2021 09:54pm
One thing that really irks me is how the age of consent varies from state to state. That makes absolutely zero fucking sense. Why the fuck is the age of consent 16 in some states, 17 in some other states, and 18 in the rest? If you were to have sex with a 17 year old in one state, you'd be fine. But in another state, you'd go to jail. That is beyond stupid.

Another major problem that I believe lies beneath all of this sex offense problem is Hollywood. They have set a unrealistic standard for beauty in both men and women today. I believe that is a real problem, and the average man and woman falls well below the "standard" that Hollywood has set for our society. So, for a lot of people, they just don't find most people attractive, so they end up looking at children because of their flawless skin. That is my opinion, of course. I know a lot of people will disagree with me but idc, I firmly believe that this is a real problem that lies in our society.

Finally, here is a true story of one person I know personally. I will call him Matthew. He was an openly gay man and single, in his early 30's. He met a woman who had a teenage son. The woman was a druggie so the son grew up in that kind of environment, neglected by his mother. Anyway, that boy was 17 years old and as soon as he found out Matthew was gay, he began seducing him to have sex with him. Matthew knew the boy's age and told him no. The boy didn't give up; he kept pushing himself onto Matthew. Finally one day Matthew caved to temptation and they had sex. About a week later, the boy wanted Matthew to buy him a brand new truck. Matthew told him no. So, guess what the boy did? He turned himself in to the police and told them a bullshit story that Matthew had molested him. Because he was a minor, they had to believe him despite Matthew's counter story. And Matthew's bad luck didn't stop there: he got a judge who was homophobic. Matthew ended up in jail for a few years and now is registered as a sex offender for life. See the problem here? Our law system is not perfect.
Member
Posts: 2,660
Joined: Mar 28 2010
Gold: 0.00
May 12 2021 10:30am
The registry should be narrowed to only the more deviant crimes imo.

Hard to say on the involuntary commitment front. I'd like to believe the evaluations are true and the reason they aren't released is because they never get better, but it is the government we are talking about. Its hard to have a concrete opinion on it without personal knowledge or familiarity with the residents.

For the age of consent issue - don't fool around with someone under 18 unless you've read and understand the law in your state. That's on you.

If our system was perfect I'd be down to chop parts off of the worst offenders. Sadly its not.

/e Almost forgot housing issue! The localities need to make requirements livable. They served their time.

This post was edited by krackprophet on May 12 2021 10:32am
Member
Posts: 92,993
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,299.94
May 12 2021 10:39am
Quote (pwb3 @ May 11 2021 10:54pm)
One thing that really irks me is how the age of consent varies from state to state. That makes absolutely zero fucking sense. Why the fuck is the age of consent 16 in some states, 17 in some other states, and 18 in the rest? If you were to have sex with a 17 year old in one state, you'd be fine. But in another state, you'd go to jail. That is beyond stupid.

Another major problem that I believe lies beneath all of this sex offense problem is Hollywood. They have set a unrealistic standard for beauty in both men and women today. I believe that is a real problem, and the average man and woman falls well below the "standard" that Hollywood has set for our society. So, for a lot of people, they just don't find most people attractive, so they end up looking at children because of their flawless skin. That is my opinion, of course. I know a lot of people will disagree with me but idc, I firmly believe that this is a real problem that lies in our society.

Finally, here is a true story of one person I know personally. I will call him Matthew. He was an openly gay man and single, in his early 30's. He met a woman who had a teenage son. The woman was a druggie so the son grew up in that kind of environment, neglected by his mother. Anyway, that boy was 17 years old and as soon as he found out Matthew was gay, he began seducing him to have sex with him. Matthew knew the boy's age and told him no. The boy didn't give up; he kept pushing himself onto Matthew. Finally one day Matthew caved to temptation and they had sex. About a week later, the boy wanted Matthew to buy him a brand new truck. Matthew told him no. So, guess what the boy did? He turned himself in to the police and told them a bullshit story that Matthew had molested him. Because he was a minor, they had to believe him despite Matthew's counter story. And Matthew's bad luck didn't stop there: he got a judge who was homophobic. Matthew ended up in jail for a few years and now is registered as a sex offender for life. See the problem here? Our law system is not perfect.


state's rights is the justification.

in my state two 17 year olds an have sex with each other, then both be tried as adults for sleeping with an underaged person. obviously no DA would touch that case, but per the law it can happen.
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev123Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll