I see. Missed the post most likely due to the thread growing pages per day. Anyway the latest news I mention is from May 11



This post was edited by Djunior on May 19 2020 11:45am

The opinions towards refugees are generally different from the opinions on migrant labour. IE the VVD was in favour of many of the Eastern European nations joining Schengen/EU. This because the biggest voice in the VVD is business, and businesses love to pay less for labour. VVD has been far more hesitant towards refugees in the past.

And in 2017, we had 838,000 migrant workers in the Netherlands. At the end of 2017 we had a total of 108k refugees (in total over the years!). Quite the difference in impact me thinks. Also the jobs that migrant workers take up would generally be ideal for refugees to start in. You generally don't need to communicate in Dutch, and training is minimal.

good numbers for reference there, clearly refugees dont stack up in numbers to migrants. still i wonder what the plan is for refugees if not to end up in sweat shops. i always hear emotional arguments for refugees (arguments i tend to empathize with), and then "we need unskilled labor"shoehorned into the conversation without a coherant plan. but im also not generally up to date on EU worker protection politics. they could be working on that front and the migrant front, just seems like a big mouthful to chew.

It varies a lot, especially from country to country. Most Somali/Afghan refugees have a hard time integrating and finding jobs because they were usually poor city people or rural folks, so they stay on the dole way longer.

The refugees from Syria or Iran are generally way better educated, fled because of war/political reaons and thus have a way easier time integrating and finding a job fast.

it's even worse. politicians are acting like those are somehow shocking new revelations, when it has been a problem for years and largely ignored / accepted by officials (poor budgeting of health offices, leading to a low frequency of controls, ineffective punishment of violations...), most likely thanks to pretty significant lobbying efforts.
hope (but don't really expect) this will lead to changes in that already scandal-ridden industry - and similar situations concerning seasonal workers in the farming industry. at the very least, the public exposure might help some people think about their meat consumption, particularly regarding the cheapest of the cheap shit. if not for the animals, maybe for the workers in the industry and their own health. i severely doubt it though.

textbook late stage capitalism really - and some people say we need FEWER regulations in that sector, lol.



i'm really glad that people take interest and raise awareness for such issues - even if it's just butthurt american kids, who can't handle criticism about the state of their country.

This post was edited by fender on May 19 2020 12:04pm

It's called "Mar de Plastico".





Immigration is an area where left and right have switched their traditional positions in recent years in most countries.


A high influx of cheap labor is economically good for the rich and bad for the poor, so a pro-immigration stance should be associated with the political right while a cautious stance should be associated with the political left. In some places, like the Netherlands or New Zealand, that's still the case today.
At the same time, the political left is traditionally associated with anti-racism, human rights, internationality - and they needed new voters. So they have in recent years (in most countries) aligned themselves increasingly with immgirant communities and immigrant issues.

So while the political right is increasingly influenced, if not dominated, by anti-migration right-wring nationalists while conservative proponents of neoliberal globalization have lost influence, the political left is increasingly pro-migration. In countries with a multiparty system, this leads to all sorts of weird combinations.


Roughly speaking, there are five types in most European countries:

- traditional center-left parties (social democrats) who were ambivalent and nowadays are pro-migration on anti-racist and humanitarian grounds
- traditional center-right parties who are ambivalent on immigration on cultural grounds, but pro-migration on economic grounds (the Bush wing of the Republican party, Angela Merkel's party)
- modern left-green parties (Greens and such) who are staunchly pro-migration on anti-racist and humanitarian grounds and based on their heavily globalist orientation
- tradtional far-left socialists or communist parties who are very torn on migration because they are in favor of it on ideological grounds while they know its bad for their traditional voters and thus politically disadvantageous for them
- ascendent right-wring nationalists who are staunchly anti-migration on both cultural and economic grounds (UKIP, the Trump wing of the Republican party)

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on May 19 2020 12:05pm

Is there the divide in opinions on migrant labour vis-à-vis refugees, as there is in the Netherlands?

This post was edited by balrog66 on May 19 2020 12:07pm

At least here in Europe, the problem isnt a lack of regulations and worker protection laws, it's the utter lack of enforcement.

This lack of enforcement imho exists because this exploitation of Eastern European migrant workers is politically desired. No politician would ever admit it of course, but there are too many beneficiaries: the population of Western Europe because it means cheaper meat and produce, the farmers and the owners of the meat companies because they squeeze extra profit out of it, and the home states because these workers are sending money back home.

tldr: slavery is really profitable for everyone except the slaves.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on May 19 2020 12:14pm

Yes, definitely. Almost no one in Germany is against immigrant workers who work in industries where there is real demand, who are being paid properly (not undercutting domestic wages) and paying proper taxes.
What we are against is an influx of work migrants who file for unemployment benefits or welfare shortly after arriving here without having paid into our system, or who work in minimum wage jobs where they are still receiving top-up welfare benefits while paying no social insurance contributions of their own. Abuse of these two mechanisms has gotten out of hand too over the last 10-15 years.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on May 19 2020 12:20pm

First bold: Yes that's what I said in OP. And I posted a vid from 2013 but it's been going on for much longer.

Second bold: Butthurt? What I point out in OP is that EU PARDians very eagerly point fingers at US immigration policies while we now have proof of the EU facing colossal issues of it's own. You haven't explained to us why we should take the EU's critique on US' immigration even serious.

Let alone that you explained how taking such a position is even morally acceptable when the situation in your own countries resemble modern slavery.

Try again and try harder this time.



This post was edited by Djunior on May 19 2020 12:21pm