Without the benefit of modern understanding of game theory and the dynamics of competitive systems, they created a government with well constructed checks and balances to compromise between every series of pitfalls, between tyrannical democracies and unrepresentative republics, between slow and deliberative legislative bodies and the decisiveness of a single leader, between the need for an evolving system of laws and governance and a set of inviolate rights and guarantees. You're using an absolutist moral relativist lens to squint suspiciously at the bathwater and ignore the baby. Lets be real, if any founding fathers had proposed enfranchising women, they'd have gotten laughed out of the room. And if they tried to work abolition into their new government, the brawl would have spilled into the streets. Its one thing to talk about the pragmatic incremental change that was possible in a contemporary society barring idealist fantasy, but the founding fathers went well beyond that and were responsible for a seismic shift in governance. We have the benefit of seeing democracy all around us, but before the English civil war and French revolution settled upon more incremental reforms when radicals fell, democracy had been extinct for 1600 years- and now the refined form of American democracy has rubbed off on and shaped half the planet.

The fact that the standards of their time are comparatively barbaric isn't a uniquely significant reason to abstain from idolatry.

We could just say in a general sense that idolatry is dumb thing for anyone to do. But the fact that someone adopted the standards of his time doesn't have any impact on the acceptability of idolatry.

there is nothing to "win" here unless you are trying to debate the founding fathers could walk on water.

When developing our opinion of the founding fathers, it's not fair to consider the (comparatively) barbaric standards of their time and hold that against them.

I think the bold is exactly a reason to abstain from idolatry. Why idolize somebody who adopted the standard of the time? It's like what Steven Fry said when debating the good of the Catholic church. If you had to wait for everybody else to figure it out before you could then what are you for?

For reals though, the only founding father I've seen as worthy of being idolized is George Washington. Jefferson is a close second but doesn't rise to the same level as the sheer amazingness of Washington.

For other things that happen to be distinct from particular standards.

A physics enthusiast may choose to idolize Einstein for his science despite the fact that Einstein adopted the standards of society in other areas.

My whole point is that the question of "who should get to be a citizen" is distinct from "what relationship should our citizens have to the government".

But those questions are inherently linked...

I'm more inclined to judge the people doing the judging, wondering what is wrong with a modern society that looks at older societies and passes moral judgment on them as if we aren't just as culpable by future moral standards.
Moral relativism doesn't need to completely lack a baseline footing and excuse any conduct, but its a farce to disdain anything less than the most vehement radicals. Its the kind of people who would glorify John Brown and call W.E.B. Du Bois an uncle tom. Although Marcus Garvey went a step further didn't he

Turning a critical eye to everything is the duty of responsible citizens, and that includes your founders. We can say that they created a pretty good system of government but failed to totally live up to their ideals without throwing out the good things they did. There's no need to venerate the past, and venerating them just gives people a tool to excuse the faults of today.

I see them as being distinct from one another.

If the FF had been like "we want a representative voting process and oh btw we are also giving rights to blacks and women" then the revolution would have never happened.

Progress is incremental. The incremental progress that was made stands on its own as an achievement, untarnished by the lack of progress made in other areas during that event.

This post was edited by Kayeto on May 5 2020 02:15pm