Quote (IceMage @ Jul 11 2018 02:29pm)

It just doesn't jive with Trump's rhetoric. Are we trying to isolate Russia or are we trying to bring them into the fold?

Quote (balrog66 @ Jul 11 2018 08:46am)

Trump just seems to want us to buy his more expensive LNG/fracking gas over the Russian gas. It has little to do with geopolitics.

I can see why, and the EU definitely needs more energy independence. But that takes time.

Quote (Goomshill @ Jul 11 2018 04:01pm)

we've got enough demand elsewhere to export our gas, most of it goes to japan/china/south korea/mexico/south america/etc anyway. Trump's move to send gas to ukraine and the former soviet bloc and trying to break into EU gas markets can't be chalked up to economic self-interest alone. Especially not when its alongside our efforts to isolate Iran on oil and ship weapons to ukraine/poland/etc. Gas as leverage over eastern and western europe is crucial for Russia, but mostly irrelevant for the US. It undermines Russia far more than it helps us.

Quote (Knoppie @ Jul 11 2018 09:05am)

Which is done on self interest alone, with the bilateral trading partner: Saudi-Arabia. (and Israel)

Quote (Goomshill @ 11 Jul 2018 15:33)

What else could Trump do? He's spent the last year and a half undermining Russian energy exports and trying to break into the EU with LNG and oppose the Russo-German pipelines, but Merkel has just blazed ahead over the combined objections of eastern europe and the US. Its right in the Trump Doctrine published in big bold letters that our international security strategy is intentionally pivoting to the economic sphere. Our national security, our international geopolitics and our trade policies are all one and the same now. So what good is NATO if Merkel is consciously ceding geopolitical influence to Russia in exchange for cheap energy? She offers up token concessions like chipping in more military budget or expelling Russian diplomats, but the real diplomatic great game is occurring with pipelines, exports and imports. If our NATO allies want to form closer relationships with Russia instead of relying on the US, then maybe they aren't really our NATO allies.

Trump's not going to stop the EU's romance with Putin using only the carrot, he's going to have to deploy stick.

Quote (Goomshill @ Jul 11 2018 04:12pm)

is setting back irans progress towards nuclearization purely US self-interest?

Quote (Knoppie @ 11 Jul 2018 17:31)

For geo-political influence in the region, yes.

Like you said, gas leverage is important to Russia, especially for eastern Europeans countries (not sure there though, but i'll accept it without any research), but they are not the only supplier. If things get out of hand the EU will go to an alternative, as a way to impose more harsh sanctions. That alternative could be US gas in the future, A better solution is to go further towards durable energy. Which at the first 30-50 years will be a supplement, before it could reach its potential to make even smaller countries without resources, completely self reliant.

Quote (Goomshill @ 11 Jul 2018 12:05)

President Trump started his NATO visit by denouncing Germany's dependence on Russian energy and the Nord Stream pipeline;
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/11/nato-summit-donald-trump-says-germany-is-captive-of-russians

For some background- Germany and other western EU countries have been importing the natural gas that makes up most of their winter heating from Russia, which is whats been propping up the Russian economy even after the Saudi overproduction of oil tanked petroleum markets. After the Crimean Crisis, Merkel has stepped up plans to expand its Nord Stream pipeline to carry gas directly from Russia to Germany, bypassing the eastern former soviet bloc countries like Ukraine that are hostile to Russia. This plan has been partially held up by opposition from those countries like Lithuania, and Poland leading it at the EU, but Merkel holds all the power.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2018/03/29/while-expelling-diplomats-germany-quietly-increases-dependence-on-russian-gas/#8fe8dc15b1c6

Bypassing Ukraine means that they lose any leverage over the EU and Russia since they will no longer be gatekeepers, and Putin gains leverage over the EU and Germany and securing Russia's economy. Its a death knell for Ukrainian sovereignty.
Meanwhile the US under Trump has been aggressively undermining the Russians geopolitically. We've been exporting liquified natural gas to the former soviet bloc and attempting to get the EU to join in. But LNG has to be cooled, shipped and thawed, and thus is more expensive than direct gas pipelines, so Merkel's ostensible opposition to Putin only went as deep as it took to hit the german coffers. Our gas exports are booming at the same time our oil exports are due to the high production from fracking, but as long as Germany would rather deal with Russia and buy their gas, it not only gives Putin all the creeping influence he wanted over the EU, it also renders all sanctions on the Russian economy impotent. Same story as our supposed economic isolation of Iran, as the EU buys up their oil. Shit, if Turkey wasn't a net importer, the EU would have bought up the ISIS oil flowing through them.

So all heil the fourth reich and their red alliance

Quote (ampoo @ Jul 11 2018 04:36pm)

we need nothing less than a complete revolution of physics to achieve that and i dont see that happening soon

Quote (fender @ Jul 11 2018 04:42pm)

omg, i guess we're lucky merkel 'didn't wear a suicide vest'!!!1!

as much as i hate the russian government, they are most definitely a more reliable trading partner than america these days. not that there was a realistic alternative - last time i checked there was no transatlantic gas pipeline, unpaid goom-shill...