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Jul 30 2011 09:57am
Quote (Skinned @ Jul 30 2011 03:30pm)
It's true, but Hitler was leader of an industrialized Germany, while Russia was still largely agrarian up until the revolution and well into the Soviet era, so Hitler had a little more to work with.

It's true that Hitler ran a tight ship, if he hadn't he wouldn't have been able to challenge the free world for dominance.  He was too overbearing though, because a couple times throughout the war he was poised for victory and ignored the advice of his generals and blew it.  Guess that's why Sun Tzu says to give your generals unfettered control of military operations.


Yes, some strategists have argued that, if Hitler hadn't been too cautious and ordered a halt during the invasion of Belgium and France, the miracle of Dunkirk would not have happened, and the entirety of England would have been open to him.
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Jul 30 2011 12:19pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Jul 30 2011 09:22am)
Honestly, while Hitler's occultism creeps me the hell out, he was probably a better leader, in terms of his people, than Stalin.


Especially if you were Jewish. Seriously, while you have posted a number of absurd things here, this is by far the most ridiculous and frightening. The occultism creeps you out? Really? Not the death camps? Hmmm. As for your assessment, one leader killed his citizens and launched an aggressive war that wiped out his country and ended its days as a major power. Another leader killed his citizens, defeated the other's attack, and established his country as one of two superpowers in the world. While both men were despicable beyond description, to call Hitler more successful than Stalin is simply preposterous.

Quote (bogie160 @ Jul 30 2011 09:57am)
Yes, some strategists have argued that, if Hitler hadn't been too cautious and ordered a halt during the invasion of Belgium and France, the miracle of Dunkirk would not have happened, and the entirety of England would have been open to him.


As much as Hitler deserves blame for Germany's failures, this one is a myth. Guderian and the general staff urged Hitler to pause the attack because they were worried that there troops were too exposed and tired. There is plenty of research documenting this. Nevermind the inconvenience that the troops rescued at Dunkirk played absolutely zero role in the ensuing Battle of Britain. The Germans lost the battle of Britain because they never secured air superiority, in no small part due to Hitler's meddling. He ordered the Luftwaffe to switch from wiping out the RAF and radar installations to beginning the Blitz of London (and other cities) after the British bombed Berlin. That and his focus was always eastward anyhow.
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Jul 30 2011 12:25pm
Quote (JEB90 @ Jul 30 2011 01:19pm)
Especially if you were Jewish.  Seriously, while you have posted a number of absurd things here, this is by far the most ridiculous and frightening.  The occultism creeps you out?  Really?  Not the death camps?  Hmmm.  As for your assessment, one leader killed his citizens and launched an aggressive war that wiped out his country and ended its days as a major power.  Another leader killed his citizens, defeated the other's attack, and established his country as one of two superpowers in the world.  While both men were despicable beyond description, to call Hitler more successful than Stalin is simply preposterous.


I presume what he means is that Stalin killed many more of his own people than Hitler.
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Jul 30 2011 02:19pm
Quote (JEB90 @ Jul 30 2011 06:19pm)
Especially if you were Jewish.  Seriously, while you have posted a number of absurd things here, this is by far the most ridiculous and frightening.  The occultism creeps you out?  Really?  Not the death camps?  Hmmm.  As for your assessment, one leader killed his citizens and launched an aggressive war that wiped out his country and ended its days as a major power.  Another leader killed his citizens, defeated the other's attack, and established his country as one of two superpowers in the world.  While both men were despicable beyond description, to call Hitler more successful than Stalin is simply preposterous.



As much as Hitler deserves blame for Germany's failures, this one is a myth.  Guderian and the general staff urged Hitler to pause the attack because they were worried that there troops were too exposed and tired.  There is plenty of research documenting this.  Nevermind the inconvenience that the troops rescued at Dunkirk played absolutely zero role in the ensuing Battle of Britain.  The Germans lost the battle of Britain because they never secured air superiority, in no small part due to Hitler's meddling.  He ordered the Luftwaffe to switch from wiping out the RAF and radar installations to beginning the Blitz of London (and other cities) after the British bombed Berlin.  That and his focus was always eastward anyhow.


Yes, racist and eugenic tendencies which were greatly exacerbated and driven by occultist myths about the Aryan people. As for my actual comment, Hitler was, with exception to his genocidal hatred of the Jews and occultist beliefs concerning his people, a more stable personal leader than Stalin. Stalin was a paranoid, murderous brute who killed innumerable sums of his own citizens not because of some terribly mistaken idea about race, which as atrocious as it is, is at least understandable, but because he was, at heart, a murderous paranoid soul.

From what I've read that is not the case. Guderian was commanded to halt by superiors, who, together with Hitler, were nervous about over-extension. Guderian himself would have preferred to continue and advance, and while the loss of hundreds of thousands of men would not defeated Britain in the air, it would have left Britain with next to no standing army.
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Jul 30 2011 07:50pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Jul 30 2011 02:19pm)
Yes, racist and eugenic tendencies which were greatly exacerbated and driven by occultist myths about the Aryan people. As for my actual comment, Hitler was, with exception to his genocidal hatred of the Jews and occultist beliefs concerning his people, a more stable personal leader than Stalin. Stalin was a paranoid, murderous brute who killed innumerable sums of his own citizens not because of some terribly mistaken idea about race, which as atrocious as it is, is at least understandable, but because he was, at heart, a murderous paranoid soul.

From what I've read that is not the case. Guderian was commanded to halt by superiors, who, together with Hitler, were nervous about over-extension. Guderian himself would have preferred to continue and advance, and while the loss of hundreds of thousands of men would not defeated Britain in the air, it would have left Britain with next to no standing army.


This is the kind of scene that I think Dante would write about if he were alive today:

Demon1: Hitler is far worse than Stalin.
Demon2: No, no-Stalin all the way.
1: But Hitler killed all the Jews.
2: Yeah, well--you know what we think of Jews around here. And Stalin was a communist.
1: Compared to a Nazi?
2: You know how Americans feels about communists.
1: Since when do they get to judge?
2: Just ask them.
1: True enough.
2: Communist, case closed.
1: But 6 million Jews....10-12 million overall.
2: Communist.
1: Sigh...
2: You know I'm right.
1: OK--but how many Stalins can dance on the head if a pin?

As for the Guderian business, here's one book that refutes what Guderian said in Panzer Leader pretty convincingly:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v02/v02p375_Lutton.html
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Jul 30 2011 09:00pm
dunkirk wasnt a huge set back. it would have hurt the british but ultimately wasnt a huge deal. Hitler fucked up when he didnt finish what he started tho.
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Jul 31 2011 04:34am
i love jobbik cause im from turkey hi bros ;)
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Jul 31 2011 04:40am
Quote (JEB90 @ Jul 31 2011 01:50am)
This is the kind of scene that I think Dante would write about if he were alive today:

Demon1: Hitler is far worse than Stalin.
Demon2: No, no-Stalin all the way.
1: But Hitler killed all the Jews.
2: Yeah, well--you know what we think of Jews around here.  And Stalin was a communist.
1: Compared to a Nazi?
2: You know how Americans feels about communists.
1: Since when do they get to judge?
2: Just ask them.
1: True enough.
2: Communist, case closed.
1: But 6 million Jews....10-12 million overall.
2: Communist.
1: Sigh...
2: You know I'm right.
1: OK--but how many Stalins can dance on the head if a pin?

As for the Guderian business, here's one book that refutes what Guderian said in Panzer Leader pretty convincingly:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v02/v02p375%5FLutton.html



Looking at dead people on their record, Stalin may have outdone Hitler by a large margin. The biggest estimates range at around ~30-40 million. And the gulags are pretty damn equal in cruelty to the jewisch concentration camps, imo.
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Jul 31 2011 10:36am
Quote (balrog66 @ Jul 31 2011 04:40am)
Looking at dead people on their record, Stalin may have outdone Hitler by a large margin. The biggest estimates range at around ~30-40 million. And the gulags are pretty damn equal in cruelty to the jewisch concentration camps, imo.


Hmmm...the satire just went right past you, huh?
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Jul 31 2011 11:48am
Quote (balrog66 @ Jul 31 2011 06:40am)
Looking at dead people on their record, Stalin may have outdone Hitler by a large margin. The biggest estimates range at around ~30-40 million. And the gulags are pretty damn equal in cruelty to the jewisch concentration camps, imo.


Many of those casualties were killed to crush the Nazi movement. Stalingrad alone put up a quite impressive casualty list. I bet weather, poor supplies, and hunger killed more than bullets.

Post war Stalin had a knack for not only making people disappear, but making it as though they had never existed. After Lenin died and he seized control (and went after Trotsky) there was a picture taken of him and three of his closest partners/co-conspirators. If you were to look at that picture in records a year later, one of those men would not have been in it, a year later, another man. Third year, another gone and he's standing in the picture a lone. The man revised history more than any other head of state in modern history, basically Photoshopping people out of history before the technology to do so existed.





Good example of him doing so there. I know there is another better example I seen I can't readily find.

The guy redefined tyranny. I'm not sure if him and Hitler were some sick contest or what.
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