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Feb 4 2013 07:13am
Introduction:

Good day to you ladies and gentlemen. Tonight is the first of the ten questions that we are studying at Church. I have been taking notes and I am going to try and portray what I heard at Church onto here. The first question of the ten questions is this: Can you really trust The Bible?
Now that is a good question. The frontrunner reason as to why people don't believe in God or The Bible is due to lack of trust. This is evident all the way back to The Fall. I shall start off this series there.

Genesis 3: 1-13

The Fall

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

New International Version (NIV)

1. The facts about The Bible

The first thing I must ask you is this: Would you be prepared to trust The Bible if the evidence were there? Carefully ponder this question before you move on.

Don't trust The Bible.

Many people don't trust The Bible due to various reasons. One of them being that it is a very old book. Something written 2000 years ago isn't reliable to today's standards.
Perhaps people back then weren't that smart, they didn't have the internet, wikipedia or any of that kind of stuff. That could be further from the truth.

The time of the New Testament was a time of literacy, everybody wrote stuff down. Everybody wanted to learn. To sum it all up in an age, I'd call it the Age of Education.
Basically, education back then meant a big deal. Being a Rabbi or teacher back then was a big deal. That is what Jesus was, a Rabbi, a teacher. In a nutshell, everything we know today has all come from what they all learned all those years ago.

Conspiracy Theory.
"Most conspiracy theories don't make sense nor withstand any scrutiny. They usually involve operations so immense that it's basically impossible for them to be kept secret, and all the proof given byconspiracy theorists usually have a very simple explanation (usually much simpler than the explanation given by the theorists)."
Conspiracy Theories generally have very simple explanations. That means the story isn't very detailed. Now when we look at The Bible, the stories are very detailed, look at the smaller detail. I'll list a few examples.

Luke 1:1-4
New International Version (NIV)
Introduction

1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnessesand servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself havecarefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

How does Luke start off his Gospel? In a Galaxy far away? Once upon a time? No. He states that many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been filled AMONG US. Among us means it happened all around them, not some distant planet. The stories were handed down by those who from the first were EYEWITNESSES. That means that the ones who saw what happened told everybody what they saw. Now Eyewitnesses is a plural; there is more than one eyewitness. There were many eyewitnesses telling their version of the story. Now after Luke heard all of the stories he CAREFULLY INVESTIGATED everything. That means he analysed every story and put in a very detailed story based off eyewitness accounts. If 3 people tell the same story, one person will add an extra part in that story. Some leave things out. However, if you hear the same story from different eyewitnesses, some will add extra detail in that others may have left out. Now that is by no means evidence of a dumb person from over 2000 years ago.

Mark 15:20-21

20 When they had mocked Him, they stripped Him of the purple robe, put His clothes on Him, and led Him out to crucify Him.

21 They forced a man coming in from the country, who was passing by, to carry Jesus’ cross. He was Simon, a Cyrenian, the father of Alexander and Rufus.

I highlighted the last part to highlight the detailed point. Now remember Conspiracy Theories are very simple explanations without detail. So When Jesus was carrying the Cross and he collapsed the third time, the Romans made somebody to help Jesus carry the cross. The Bible gives his name, his nationality and even who he is the father of.
Now if it were a Conspiracy Theory you would surely leave out 'the father of Alexander and Rufus.' That extra detail is based off an eyewitness account who added that little extra detail in. That is how the Gospel is devised.

Matthew 28:16-20
New International Version (NIV)
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

I don't really like to post single verses but I want you to focus on verse 17 "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." The extra little detail is some doubted. This is after Jesus died, rose again and then he appeared to many people.
Now a Conspiracy Theory would leave out the fact that some people doubted because without it, that verse looks all positive. However, The Bible isn't devised like that as it tells you what happened without leaving some parts out.

1 Corinthians 15:3-6
New International Version (NIV)
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than[B] five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

Jesus, the one who died and rose again had appeared to more than 500 people. Back then 500 different people could tell you their eyewitness testimony of seeing Jesus alive again. You cannot surely shun 500 eyewitness testimonies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now lets talk about the time of when the Gospel was written and how many copies there are.

We do have copies of famous people who write literature. I'll just post it up on here.



As you can see, there are no close seconds. We have heard of Aristotle and Juluis Caesar I'm sure. They had less copies of literature and their accounts were written over 1000 years after their time.

You cannot possibly deny all the 24k+ copies of somebody's life and that was written just 90 years after their time had come and gone here on Earth.

Let me put it to you like this. Have you ever watched or heard of a youtube video called Guitar tutor man? I'm sure the answer is no. That video doesn't even have 2000 views. I can easily go and shout to the world that Guitar tutor man doesn't exist on youtube and you can easily believe me.

Now have you ever watched or heard of a youtube video called PSY - Gangnam Style? Ofcourse you have as it has reached over 1.2 billion views, the other has over 11 million views. Now if I go and shout to the world that, Gangnam Style on youtube doesn't exist, no way I could get you all to believe me.

Same principle applies to the picture as detailed above.

2. The facts about this Question.

Does God really have your best interests at heart? The Serpent said to the woman, "Did God really say...?"
The result there we all know what happens.

It is built in humans that the language of the heart is mistrust. Somebody hurts us then we stop trusting everybody, we put up these barriers so we never trust anyone again. Now that in itself is fair enough but do you do that with The Bible?
You don't trust other people because you are scared they might hurt you. However, here comes a guy who gets hurt, mocked, beaten and bashed up. He doesn't dish out pain, he receives pain. Would you trust somebody like that? How can you not?

Romans 1:18-19
New International Version (NIV)

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people,who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

The wicked people suppress the truth by saying that none of it ever happened. They say it is all a lie, a conspiracy theory. Yet The Bible clearly says that the word became flesh.

John 1:14
New International Version (NIV)
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

You cannot deny a man's existence who lived The Word. It is living proof. There are many eyewitness accounts and they were all told and written down. Then they were passed onto the whole world and then down from generation to generation.

To sum it all up. The problem isn't the lack of evidence, it is what we do with that evidence that is given to us.
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Feb 4 2013 07:44am
The problem is that you look at the evidence with your mind made up already, because changing your mind isn't an option.

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Feb 4 2013 07:55am
Quote (fulper @ Feb 4 2013 08:44am)
The problem is that you look at the evidence with your mind made up already, because changing your mind isn't an option.


Can't the same be said about you?
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Feb 4 2013 08:08am
Isn't proving the authenticity of a work using the work itself circular reasoning?

And that chart seems like an appeal to popularity.

And ten copies of Julius Caesar? What does that even mean?

Paulgarger thread here imo.
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Feb 4 2013 08:18am
Quote (Skinned @ Feb 5 2013 12:08am)
Isn't proving the authenticity of a work using the work itself circular reasoning?

And that chart seems like an appeal to popularity.

And ten copies of Julius Caesar?  What does that even mean?

Paulgarger thread here imo.


In regards to that photo, I do have another one but I cannot publish it without consent to the owner. That is the next best thing I could find, keeping everything legal and all.
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Feb 4 2013 08:30am
Quote (CPK001 @ Feb 4 2013 09:18am)
In regards to that photo, I do have another one but I cannot publish it without consent to the owner. That is the next best thing I could find, keeping everything legal and all.


Well I'll give it all a read when I get back home later. I kind of skimmed and got stuck on the chart :p

And ya, gotta keep things legal.

This post was edited by Skinned on Feb 4 2013 08:30am
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Feb 4 2013 09:57am
Quote (Dune1 @ 4 Feb 2013 14:55)
Can't the same be said about you?


if there was conclusive evidence god existed i'd stop working on sundays.
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Feb 4 2013 09:59am
Quote (fulper @ Feb 4 2013 10:57am)
if there was conclusive evidence god existed i'd stop working on sundays.


...why would you do that ?
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Feb 4 2013 10:08am
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ 4 Feb 2013 16:59)
...why would you do that ?


so i don't get cut off by my people or put to death, naturally.
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Feb 4 2013 10:10am
Quote (CPK001 @ Feb 4 2013 01:13pm)
Introduction:

Good day to you ladies and gentlemen. Tonight is the first of the ten questions that we are studying at Church. I have been taking notes and I am going to try and portray what I heard at Church onto here. The first question of the ten questions is this: Can you really trust The Bible?
Now that is a good question. The frontrunner reason as to why people don't believe in God or The Bible is due to lack of trust. This is evident all the way back to The Fall. I shall start off this series there.

Genesis 3: 1-13

The Fall

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

New International Version (NIV)

1. The facts about The Bible

The first thing I must ask you is this: Would you be prepared to trust The Bible if the evidence were there? Carefully ponder this question before you move on.

Don't trust The Bible.

Many people don't trust The Bible due to various reasons. One of them being that it is a very old book. Something written 2000 years ago isn't reliable to today's standards.
Perhaps people back then weren't that smart, they didn't have the internet, wikipedia or any of that kind of stuff. That could be further from the truth.

The time of the New Testament was a time of literacy, everybody wrote stuff down. Everybody wanted to learn. To sum it all up in an age, I'd call it the Age of Education.
Basically, education back then meant a big deal. Being a Rabbi or teacher back then was a big deal. That is what Jesus was, a Rabbi, a teacher. In a nutshell, everything we know today has all come from what they all learned all those years ago.

Conspiracy Theory.
"Most conspiracy theories don't make sense nor withstand any scrutiny. They usually involve operations so immense that it's basically impossible for them to be kept secret, and all the proof given byconspiracy theorists usually have a very simple explanation (usually much simpler than the explanation given by the theorists)."
Conspiracy Theories generally have very simple explanations. That means the story isn't very detailed. Now when we look at The Bible, the stories are very detailed, look at the smaller detail. I'll list a few examples.

Luke 1:1-4
New International Version (NIV)
Introduction

1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnessesand servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself havecarefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

How does Luke start off his Gospel? In a Galaxy far away? Once upon a time? No. He states that many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been filled AMONG US. Among us means it happened all around them, not some distant planet. The stories were handed down by those who from the first were EYEWITNESSES. That means that the ones who saw what happened told everybody what they saw. Now Eyewitnesses is a plural; there is more than one eyewitness. There were many eyewitnesses telling their version of the story. Now after Luke heard all of the stories he CAREFULLY INVESTIGATED everything. That means he analysed every story and put in a very detailed story based off eyewitness accounts. If 3 people tell the same story, one person will add an extra part in that story. Some leave things out. However, if you hear the same story from different eyewitnesses, some will add extra detail in that others may have left out. Now that is by no means evidence of a dumb person from over 2000 years ago.

Mark 15:20-21

20 When they had mocked Him, they stripped Him of the purple robe, put His clothes on Him, and led Him out to crucify Him.

21 They forced a man coming in from the country, who was passing by, to carry Jesus’ cross. He was Simon, a Cyrenian, the father of Alexander and Rufus.

I highlighted the last part to highlight the detailed point. Now remember Conspiracy Theories are very simple explanations without detail. So When Jesus was carrying the Cross and he collapsed the third time, the Romans made somebody to help Jesus carry the cross. The Bible gives his name, his nationality and even who he is the father of.
Now if it were a Conspiracy Theory you would surely leave out 'the father of Alexander and Rufus.' That extra detail is based off an eyewitness account who added that little extra detail in. That is how the Gospel is devised.

Matthew 28:16-20
New International Version (NIV)
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

I don't really like to post single verses but I want you to focus on verse 17 "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." The extra little detail is some doubted. This is after Jesus died, rose again and then he appeared to many people.
Now a Conspiracy Theory would leave out the fact that some people doubted because without it, that verse looks all positive. However, The Bible isn't devised like that as it tells you what happened without leaving some parts out.

1 Corinthians 15:3-6
New International Version (NIV)
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than[B] five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

Jesus, the one who died and rose again had appeared to more than 500 people. Back then 500 different people could tell you their eyewitness testimony of seeing Jesus alive again. You cannot surely shun 500 eyewitness testimonies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now lets talk about the time of when the Gospel was written and how many copies there are.

We do have copies of famous people who write literature. I'll just post it up on here.

http://i45.tinypic.com/2cz8z83.jpg

As you can see, there are no close seconds. We have heard of Aristotle and Juluis Caesar I'm sure. They had less copies of literature and their accounts were written over 1000 years after their time.

You cannot possibly deny all the 24k+ copies of somebody's life and that was written just 90 years after their time had come and gone here on Earth.

Let me put it to you like this. Have you ever watched or heard of a youtube video called Guitar tutor man? I'm sure the answer is no. That video doesn't even have 2000 views. I can easily go and shout to the world that Guitar tutor man doesn't exist on youtube and you can easily believe me.

Now have you ever watched or heard of a youtube video called PSY - Gangnam Style? Ofcourse you have as it has reached over 1.2 billion views, the other has over 11 million views. Now if I go and shout to the world that, Gangnam Style on youtube doesn't exist, no way I could get you all to believe me.

Same principle applies to the picture as detailed above.

2. The facts about this Question.

Does God really have your best interests at heart? The Serpent said to the woman, "Did God really say...?"
The result there we all know what happens.

It is built in humans that the language of the heart is mistrust. Somebody hurts us then we stop trusting everybody, we put up these barriers so we never trust anyone again. Now that in itself is fair enough but do you do that with The Bible?
You don't trust other people because you are scared they might hurt you. However, here comes a guy who gets hurt, mocked, beaten and bashed up. He doesn't dish out pain, he receives pain. Would you trust somebody like that? How can you not?

Romans 1:18-19
New International Version (NIV)

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people,who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

The wicked people suppress the truth by saying that none of it ever happened. They say it is all a lie, a conspiracy theory. Yet The Bible clearly says that the word became flesh.

John 1:14
New International Version (NIV)
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

You cannot deny a man's existence who lived The Word. It is living proof. There are many eyewitness accounts and they were all told and written down. Then they were passed onto the whole world and then down from generation to generation.

To sum it all up. The problem isn't the lack of evidence, it is what we do with that evidence that is given to us.


Here's a quick summary of what christians think about the Bible:

"We believe that the Bible is the ultimate, perfect, unchanged word of God himself, revealed unto 40 writers, and, even though it has countless contradictions, and keeps on changing, we can STILL trust it, and follow it and its doctrines"

The problem with such a statement hardly needs exposing: if a text has been corrupt over time, and you no longer know what the original manuscripts say - due to the fact that you do not HAVE the originals - , then you can reasonably argue that your faith is based on other people's OPINIONS, and what their PERSONAL OPINIONS wrote by the passing of time!

A quick example of Bible corruption:

****************************


Another fabrication which was thrown out is the only verse that resembles the Trinity, from the 1st epistle of John, Chapter 5, verse 7, which says: “For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.” / 1 John 5:7, Douay/Rheims Catholic Bible, King James Version.

But this is not in the Revised Standard Version of the Bible! Isn't the RSV the Word of God? In that Bible it's not there! Why is it not there? It's not there because the 32 Christian scholars of the highest eminence, backed by 50 cooperating church denominations, saw that this is another fabrication; another interpolation, so they also threw it out!

And we are not discussing just one word been thrown out! There are lots more! There are whole chunks and even chapters of this kind of discrepancies! And if you need to learn about something, you must go to the experts. So, if you want to know something about the Bible, you go to the Bible experts, and they are telling you that this is a fabrication!

The ascension from Mark 16:19, is not in my RSV Bible! I open up Mark Chapter 16, and I see that it ends at verse 8! 9-20 is missing! Did I take it out? Did any Muslim take it out? No!

32 scholars of the highest eminence, backed by 50 cooperating church denominations, they saw it fit, that this is another fabrication imposed upon Christendom, and they also threw it out! It's not in my RSV Bible; therefore it is not the word of God!

If the RSV is the Word of God, then the KJV is not the Word of God. But (!), I pick up another Bible (another RSV, printed in 1971), and I see it back again! It's inside! The ascension is only mentioned in 2 places in the Gospels (Mark 16:19, and Luke 24:51), however, ironically, when Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem, all 4 Gospel writers mention it! (Matthew 21:7; Mark 11:7; Luke 19:35; John 12:14). A lesser happening was not missed out by any of the 4 Gospel writers, but the ascension was only mentioned by 2! And again they are fabrications! What was thrown out was put back in again! Because when I look into the 1971 RSV Bible, which was printed by the same printers, in the same publishing house, I see that it is there again!

In the preface, we read the following:

“Two passages, the longer ending of Mark (16:9-20) and the account of the woman caught in adultery (John 7:53-8:11), are restored to the text,” (RSV 1971 preface)

By who’s authority? Once again, the 1971 RSV preface gives us the answer:

“Many proposals for modification were submitted to the Committee by individuals and by two denominational committees.”

Furthermore, the 1946 RSV preface also says:

“The King James Version of the New Testament was based upon a Greek text that was marred by mistakes, containing the accumulated errors of fourteen centuries of manuscript copying. It was essentially the Greek text of the New Testament as edited by Beza, 1589, who closely followed that published by Erasmus, 1516-1535, which was based upon a few medieval manuscripts. The earliest and best of the eight manuscripts which Erasmus consulted was from the tenth century, and he made the least use of it because it differed most from the commonly received text; Beza had access to two manuscripts of great value, dating from the fifth and sixth centuries, but he made very little use of them because they differed from the text published by Erasmus.”


****************************


Source: "Comparative Religion: What you should really know about the Scriptures, Chapter 3, section 2, pages 55-56
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