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May 10 2010 01:25pm
Quote (Veilside @ May 10 2010 01:06pm)
Bows in Morrowind? LOL.



Opera's awesome. Only reason you'd want to use Firefox over Opera is if you need Firebug, otherwise, Opera is the better browser.


Indeed, Thats the only way i play in oblivion. Sneaking/shooting is way more fun than running in swinging in my opinion.

Chrome>
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May 10 2010 01:25pm
How about an explanation of what pain is in a sceintific term, and then explaining why life does not only consist of pain because the brain processes hundreds/thousands of other things.


Also, there is no such thing as free will.

Quote (Akaris @ May 10 2010 08:25pm)
Indeed,  Thats the only way i play in oblivion.  Sneaking/shooting is way more fun than running in swinging in my opinion.

Chrome>


It's fun in Oblivion, but bows suck in Morrowind because of the "diceroll to hit" mechanic.

This post was edited by Veilside on May 10 2010 01:26pm
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May 10 2010 01:26pm
Quote (Veilside @ 10 May 2010 20:25)
How about an explanation of what pain is in a sceintific term, and then explaining why life does not only consist of pain because the brain processes hundreds/thousands of other things.


Also, there is no such thing as free will.


i dont that.

+ deep philisophical argument brewing.
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May 10 2010 01:28pm
Quote (Titch @ May 10 2010 02:21pm)
god damn. to get through to a mac user on IE i need something more... more... gay?




how about:
'amongst the definition of living is to feel strong emotions such as love, jealousy and pain.
If you were to never feel pain, therefore, you would not be living.
For your life to become nothing more than pain you must feel nothing more.
So if you feel anything for _______ [insert teh Goblet's real name] then you cannot be all-consumed with pain.
And you must live a normal life.'

Now, go rag.


It's an interesting case.
Looking at this metaphorically the Mac can be seen as something akin to a mother's womb. It offers an environment free from pain and frustration.
By using a Mac, the subject hides herself away from pain and its companions - the the Bsod, the ultimately useless help file etc.

However, Internet Explorer offers the opposite environment in every way imagineable.

Clearly her conscious efforts to run from pain are undermined by a subconscious desire to feel pain in order to express herself

That'll be 100fg.
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May 10 2010 01:29pm
Quote (MidnightRider @ 10 May 2010 20:28)
It's an interesting case. 
Looking at this metaphorically the Mac can be seen as something akin to a mother's womb.  It offers an environment free from pain and frustration.   
By using a Mac, the subject hides herself away from pain and its companions - the the Bsod, the ultimately useless help file etc. 

However, Internet Explorer offers the opposite environment in every way imagineable.

Clearly her conscious efforts to run from pain are undermined by a subconscious desire to feel pain in order to express herself

That'll be 100fg.


I concurr.

Very good point. does lack, hwoever, the sympathetic reassurance idea...
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May 10 2010 01:30pm
Quote (Titch @ May 10 2010 08:26pm)
i dont that.

+ deep philisophical argument brewing.


http://speculativeheresy.***/2008/11/26/the-semantic-apocalypse/

Quote
CONSCIOUSNESS AS COIN TRICK: THE BLIND BRAIN HYPOTHESIS

What if we’ve been duped, not simply here and there, but all the way down, when it comes to experience? What if consciousness were some bizarre kind of hoax?

The final secondary argument offered in the novel is based on something called the ‘Blind Brain Hypothesis.’ Consciousness is so strange, so little understood, that anything might result from the current research in neuroscience and cognitive science. We could literally discover that we are little more than epiphenomenal figments, dreams that our brains have cooked up in the absence of any viable alternatives. Science is ever the cruel stranger, the one who spares no feelings, concedes no conceits no matter how essential. In the near future world of Neuropath, this is precisely what has happened under the guise of the Blind Brain Hypothesis, the theoretical brainchild of the story’s hero, Thomas Bible.

Consider coin tricks. Why do coin tricks strike us as ‘magic’? When describing them, we say things like “poof, there it was.” The coin, we claim, “materialized from thin air” or “appeared from nowhere.” We tend, in other words, to focus on the lack of causal precursors, on the beforelessness of the coin’s appearance, as the amazing thing. But why should ‘beforelessness’ strike us as remarkable to the point of magic?

From an evolutionary standpoint, the uncanniness of things appearing from nowhere seems easy enough to understand. Our brains are adaptive artifacts of environments where natural objects such as coins generally didn’t ‘pop into existence.’ Our brains have evolved to process causal environments possessing natural objects with interrelated causal histories. When natural objects appear without any apparent causal history, as in a coin trick, our brains are confronted by something largely without evolutionary precedent. Instances of apparent beforelessness defeat our brains’ routine environmental processing.

The magic of coin tricks, one might say, is a function of our brains’ hardwired abhorrence of causal vacuums in local environments. The integration of natural objects into causal backgrounds is the default, which is why, we might suppose, the sense of magic immediately evaporates when we look over the magician’s shoulder and the causal history of the coin is revealed. The magic of coin tricks, in other words, depends on our brains’ relation to the coin’s causal history. Expose that causal history, and the appearing coin seems a natural object like any other. Suppress that causal history (through misdirection, sleight of hand, etc.), and the appearing coin exhibits beforelessness. It seems like magic.

I bring this up because so many intentional phenomena exhibit an eerily similar structure. Consider, for instance, your present experience of listening. The words you hear ‘are simply there.’ You experience me speaking; nowhere does the neurophysiology–the causal history–of your experience enter into that experience as something experienced. You have no inkling of sound waves striking your eardrum. You have no intuitive awareness of your cochlea or auditory cortex. Like the coin, this experience seems to arise ‘ready made.’

The Blind Brain Hypothesis proposes that this is no accident. Various experiential phenomena, it suggests, are best understood as a kind of magic trick–only one that we cannot see through or around because our brain itself is the magician.

Whether or not the so-called ‘thalamocortical system’ turns out to be the ‘seat of consciousness,’ one thing is clear: the information that finds its way to consciousness represents only a small fraction of the brain’s overall information load. This means that at any given moment, the brain’s consciousness systems possess a kind of (fixed or dynamic) information horizon. What falls outside this information horizon, we are inclined to either overlook completely or attribute to the so-called ‘unconscious’–a problematic intentional metaphor if there ever was one.

Just as the magic of coin tricks is a function of our brains’ blinkered relation to the coin’s causal history, the Blind Brain Hypothesis suggests that many central structural characteristics of consciousness are expressions of our brains’ blinkered relation to their own causal histories, an artifact of the thalamocortical information horizon.

Given that our brains are in fact largely blind to their own neurophysiological processing, it seems clear that an information horizon exists in some form. Structurally, the brain is simply too complicated to track itself. Developmentally, the brain lacked both the time and the evolutionary impetus to track itself.
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May 10 2010 01:33pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-560149/So-free-really-just-illusion.html

Quote
This week, for instance, Professor John-Dylan Haynes and colleagues at the Max Planck Institute in Germany report the findings of an extraordinary experiment which seems to show that "free will" - the most cherished tenet of humanity, which decrees that Man has total control of his own actions - may, in fact, be little more than an illusion.

For in their experiment, the scientists found that we may not be making conscious choices at all.

Rather, our subconscious minds may be dictating our actions, long before we realise.

It is a troubling suggestion. As Prof Haynes says: "The impression that we are freely able to choose between different possible courses of action is fundamental to our mental health."

If we are not in control after all, then that makes humans little more than automatons.

In his experiment, volunteers were asked to view a stream of letters on a computer screen and told, at some point, of their choosing, to press a button either with their left or right index finger - and remember the letter that was on the screen when they did so.

The volunteers were also connected to brain-scanning MRI machines which were able to monitor and analyse brain patterns.

These "mind-reading" scanners could recognise when the brain had decided on a course of action.

To the researchers' astonishment, it turned out that the volunteers' brains would reach a decision about pressing one of the buttons several seconds before the volunteers actually thought they had made up their minds.
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May 10 2010 01:35pm
Quote (Veilside @ 10 May 2010 20:30)
http://speculativeheresy.***/2008/11/26/the-semantic-apocalypse/


wow
TL; but actually did mainly read
and its an interesting article

odd to think that even when you stop yourself and think 'hey maybe ill not do that becuase i was going to so it must have been my fate but im cool so ill change it'
then you consciously decide to do something else
you think 'o shi- maybe i was always destined to stop then, say that then 'choose' this path.
the mind baffles :/

Quote (Veilside @ 10 May 2010 20:33)


also interesing, not sure its conclusive 'evidence' as such though.

This post was edited by Titch on May 10 2010 01:36pm
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May 10 2010 01:35pm
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-04/m-udi041408.php

Quote
Already several seconds before we consciously make a decision its outcome can be predicted from unconscious activity in the brain. This is shown in a study by scientists from the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Leipzig, in collaboration with the Charite University Hospital and the Bernstein Center for Computational Neuroscience in Berlin. The researchers from the group of Professor John-Dylan Haynes used a brain scanner to investigate what happens in the human brain just before a decision is made. "Many processes in the brain occur automatically and without involvement of our consciousness. This prevents our mind from being overloaded by simple routine tasks. But when it comes to decisions we tend to assume they are made by our conscious mind. This is questioned by our current findings." (Nature Neuroscience, April 13th 2008)

In the study, participants could freely decide if they wanted to press a button with their left or right hand. They were free to make this decision whenever they wanted, but had to remember at which time they felt they had made up their mind. The aim of the experiment was to find out what happens in the brain in the period just before the person felt the decision was made. The researchers found that it was possible to predict from brain signals which option participants would take already seven seconds before they consciously made their decision. Normally researchers look at what happens when the decision is made, but not atwhat happens several seconds before. The fact that decisions can be predicted so long before they are made is a astonishing finding.

This unprecedented prediction of a free decision was made possible by sophisticated computer programs that were trained to recognize typical brain activity patterns preceding each of the two choices. Micropatterns of activity in the frontopolar cortex were predictive of the choices even before participants knew which option they were going to choose. The decision could not be predicted perfectly, but prediction was clearly above chance. This suggests that the decision is unconsciously prepared ahead of time but the final decision might still be reversible.

"Most researchers investigate what happens when people have to decide immediately, typically as a rapid response to an event in our environment. Here we were focusing on the more interesting decisions that are made in a more natural, self-paced manner", Haynes explains.

More than 20 years ago the American brain scientist Benjamin Libet found a brain signal, the so-called "readiness-potential" that occurred a fraction of a second before a conscious decision. Libet's experiments were highly controversial and sparked a huge debate. Many scientists argued that if our decisions are prepared unconsciously by the brain, then our feeling of "free will" must be an illusion. In this view, it is the brain that makes the decision, not a person's conscious mind. Libet's experiments were particularly controversial because he found only a brief time delay between brain activity and the conscious decision.

In contrast, Haynes and colleagues now show that brain activity predicts even up to 7 seconds ahead of time how a person is going to decide. But they also warn that the study does not finally rule out free will: "Our study shows that decisions are unconsciously prepared much longer ahead than previously thought. But we do not know yet where the final decision is made. We need to investigate whether a decision prepared by these brain areas can still be reversed."
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May 10 2010 01:36pm
i should really go do some work
back in 30 to continue interesting debate
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