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Feb 4 2016 02:09pm
such a funny argument about one of the retarded matchups...

this duel, just like bvb and zeal vs zeal, has to do with plenty of luck ones u reach certain amount of stats and so i dont understand ur seriousness...

pretty much any duel that has to do with both chars relying on block/dodge etc is either extremely luck based or heavily in favor of one or the other.

get over it and play something more skill based, its much more enjoyable.

ring is ok 8/10

since u r comparing rings, in my personal opinion the overall best option for a versatile hybzon is ar/min/dex/life/mana/psn res.



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Feb 4 2016 03:53pm
Quote (mewi @ Feb 4 2016 01:57pm)
The only reason a zvz duel would last that long, is because you are intentionally abusing life replenish. Which is against the rules. Furthermore, your argument is basically saying, why add dex at all? "the damage is irrelevant" damage is irrelevant I guess to a Vita zon??? Because they can out damage a glass cannon??? How does that logic playout? Look at what you consider "average" zvz guided damage, "800-4.5k" and look what I consider damage 1700-6700. Clearly there is a disparity here, and my numbers aren't bologna. Did I mention that your vitazon is going to have almost 1k less minimum damage, over 2k less max? would only have 1/3rd the attack rating of a glass cannon zon? Sure it has more life, but that is all it has, a properly built glass cannon and a skillful player is going to walk all over a vitazon because the damage output is going to wittle that 1.3k life bonus in seconds. As for melee, I wouldn't recommend it if I were a vitazon~

and for the 3rd time, I never once argued that attack rating had no benefits for an amazon. I said the attack rating on the ring is a wasted mod. Your argument is that a small attack rating boost of over 20k+++ is going to make a difference. But I guess you wouldn't have that kind of attack rating... because you value wasting 4 points for 1% crit gain over penetrate.

and your 5 damage per hit commentary is bullshit to a glass cannon and you know it.


I suppose this is a difference of opinion, if you dont think duels last a while and therefore life rep is not worth it, then you wont see the value of this ring posted, if you actually play zvz and know that duels do last a long time, then you will value the life rep. note: likely every zon on the zvz ladder gets 22 life rep

and yeah, if you do the math, adding dex really isnt worth it. the damage gain compared to the life gain, is not worth it. Zons add enough dex for max block, then they go all vita. well, good zons anyways. Thats why some of the best zons have used wistans shield, you can use less dex and then put more points into vita.

my average damage is 1100-4255
by your own admission, yours is 1841-6863

assumptions: we both have 48DR, we both have 72 critical strike, i have 60frw in inventory, you have 50frw(so ill use your 1.2k life number), (i have 150frw total, 75light res, 48DR bow/jav side, 2244 life, 72cs, 12,000ar (90%chance to hit))

lets do the math... (avg damage)*(pvp penalty)*(1-DR)*(critical strike)
ME average damage = ((1100+4255)/2)*(.17)*(.52)*(1.72) = 407.109
You average damage = ((1841+6863)/2)*(.17)*(.52)*(1.72) = 661.713

now, were going to see how many hits it takes for me to kill you, and how many hits it takes for you to kill me

2244/661.713 = 3.391
1200/407.109 = 2.948

so it takes me 2.948 hits to kill you, and it takes you 3.391 hits to kill me

i cant think of a better mathematical comparison to compare builds, if you have one, please post it.

also note, you have 5frw sc's, I dont, this gives you a big life advantage (less frw sc's needed, more life sc's used)
if I assumed some wrong numbers for your build, post up and ill edit.

also, yes using 3 points to get 1% higher critical is worth it compared to the other options (3 points in penetrate will increase chance to hit from 90%-91%)
9 min translates to 5 average damage for vita, for your glass build, its probably closer to 8 or 9.

This post was edited by Arelax on Feb 4 2016 04:01pm
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Feb 4 2016 06:03pm
Quote (Arelax @ Feb 4 2016 04:53pm)
I suppose this is a difference of opinion, if you dont think duels last a while and therefore life rep is not worth it, then you wont see the value of this ring posted, if you actually play zvz and know that duels do last a long time, then you will value the life rep. note: likely every zon on the zvz ladder gets 22 life rep

and yeah, if you do the math, adding dex really isnt worth it. the damage gain compared to the life gain, is not worth it. Zons add enough dex for max block, then they go all vita. well, good zons anyways. Thats why some of the best zons have used wistans shield, you can use less dex and then put more points into vita.

my average damage is 1100-4255
by your own admission, yours is 1841-6863

assumptions: we both have 48DR, we both have 72 critical strike, i have 60frw in inventory, you have 50frw(so ill use your 1.2k life number), (i have 150frw total, 75light res, 48DR bow/jav side, 2244 life, 72cs, 12,000ar (90%chance to hit))

lets do the math... (avg damage)*(pvp penalty)*(1-DR)*(critical strike)
ME average damage = ((1100+4255)/2)*(.17)*(.52)*(1.72) = 407.109
You average damage = ((1841+6863)/2)*(.17)*(.52)*(1.72) = 661.713

now, were going to see how many hits it takes for me to kill you, and how many hits it takes for you to kill me

2244/661.713 = 3.391
1200/407.109 = 2.948

so it takes me 2.948 hits to kill you, and it takes you 3.391 hits to kill me

i cant think of a better mathematical comparison to compare builds, if you have one, please post it.

also note, you have 5frw sc's, I dont, this gives you a big life advantage (less frw sc's needed, more life sc's used)
if I assumed some wrong numbers for your build, post up and ill edit.

also, yes using 3 points to get 1% higher critical is worth it compared to the other options (3 points in penetrate will increase chance to hit from 90%-91%)
9 min translates to 5 average damage for vita, for your glass build, its probably closer to 8 or 9.


Did you just say "If I actually play zvz" lol? I am Engel, rest assured I've been zvzing longer than any of the current zvzers, I retired late .10 but that doesn't mean I do not know anything about zvz, and if Engel doesn't mean anything to you, I guess we'll have to settle this the old fashioned way. You give me your zvz build, exact stats, item affixes and jewels etc. I'll build it, you can allocate the points to whatever you want. And we'll do this on open.

Also! because penetrate is attack rating, and amazon has many skills that rely on it, and differs depending on each skill, the more the better. Now we are going to get into some more pointless arguments, I'll fight your vita zon, granted I have not zvz dueled in 5 years, but I think it is still second nature. I did do it for 10 years prior so... lol.
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Feb 4 2016 06:08pm
Quote (mewi @ Feb 4 2016 08:03pm)
Did you just say "If I actually play zvz" lol? I am Engel, rest assured I've been zvzing longer than any of the current zvzers, I retired late .10 but that doesn't mean I do not know anything about zvz, and if Engel doesn't mean anything to you, I guess we'll have to settle this the old fashioned way. You give me your zvz build, exact stats, item affixes and jewels etc. I'll build it, you can allocate the points to whatever you want. And we'll do this on open.

Also! because penetrate is attack rating, and amazon has many skills that rely on it, and differs depending on each skill, the more the better. Now we are going to get into some more pointless arguments, I'll fight your vita zon, granted I have not zvz dueled in 5 years, but I think it is still second nature. I did do it for 10 years prior so... lol.


id be more than happy to duel you, i dont know much about dueling on open bnet, as i never have before.
but whether you beat me, or i beat you, that doesnt really matter. you cant argue with math. theres no doubt that some zon could whoop me with a glass build, but that same zon would probably also beat me with a vita build, what we're talking about here is theory based on math and logic.

and yea, you having alot more AR is a good bonus, you have a 95% chance to hit with multi/fury, whereas mine is closer to 91%.

i apologize if i offended you, that wasnt my intent. like i said in my pm, i appreciate the discussion, i learned some things.
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Feb 4 2016 06:35pm
Quote (Arelax @ Feb 4 2016 07:08pm)
id be more than happy to duel you, i dont know much about dueling on open bnet, as i never have before.
but whether you beat me, or i beat you, that doesnt really matter. you cant argue with math. theres no doubt that some zon could whoop me with a glass build, but that same zon would probably also beat me with a vita build, what we're talking about here is theory based on math and logic.

and yea, you having alot more AR is a good bonus, you have a 95% chance to hit with multi/fury, whereas mine is closer to 91%.

i apologize if i offended you, that wasnt my intent. like i said in my pm, i appreciate the discussion, i learned some things.


I am not offended lol. I am a practical use player, math can be useful but overall practical tests are more valuable in the long run. Open battle.net is a locally hosted server in retrospect. I specify ports on my router to allow a connection through, and you sign in just like any normal closed battle.net game. Anyway let me know in whisper.

Edit: Also keep in mind with AR that you have to consider shield block, character level, run/walk, etc.

This post was edited by mewi on Feb 4 2016 06:55pm
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Feb 4 2016 10:39pm
Interesting read, you two.
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Feb 5 2016 04:40am
Quote (Prusias @ Feb 3 2016 02:25pm)


ya my bad. this was an old one you obviously got ahold of. will post new one later today.
anyways I believe those are best stats possible for zvz. could be more perfect but then you
get into paid for items :( for me this is prolly the best or if not top 3 self found zvz stats/rings.
I sold this ring I believe for a little over 3k fg. I can pull gold log if needed. whoever got this
ring that posted I'm sure is very happy with it and helps your build with every stat.

This post was edited by DKGNATE on Feb 5 2016 04:50am
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Feb 5 2016 05:09am
Quote (Arelax @ Feb 4 2016 07:08pm)
id be more than happy to duel you, i dont know much about dueling on open bnet, as i never have before.
but whether you beat me, or i beat you, that doesnt really matter. you cant argue with math. theres no doubt that some zon could whoop me with a glass build, but that same zon would probably also beat me with a vita build, what we're talking about here is theory based on math and logic.

and yea, you having alot more AR is a good bonus, you have a 95% chance to hit with multi/fury, whereas mine is closer to 91%.

i apologize if i offended you, that wasnt my intent. like i said in my pm, i appreciate the discussion, i learned some things.


sup bro. nice debate :) good logic/math/advice/opinions for many noobs out there :)
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Feb 5 2016 10:13am
Quote (mewi @ Feb 1 2016 01:11pm)
Anything more than dungos replenish life violates oldschool zvz rules. The new rules are an abomination.


stfu that's the most retarded thing I've ever heard
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Feb 7 2016 07:58pm
i know xpac needs mana but on nl we dont and i have 10 rings better than this for zvz
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