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Bob888
#11 Aug 30 2017 09:18am
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Very legitimate points and the game should be more stimulating for new players, even an in-game tutorial would be nice! A lot of people don't ever figure out how to use the marketplace or what abilities to use etc.

You did a group climb with partyplanner and his wives. They use very mediocre gear and you can see that they do just fine. This is a d2jsp.org website game so it only make sense that you have to spend forum gold to get the items you want. You took 2-3 days to get to lvl 25 because you didn't use the marketplace to buy enhanced effect weapons.

Take Poe for example. A physical damage melee build NEEDS enhanced effect on the weapons. If you're casting you go with other stats just like on ladder slasher.

The game offers the marketplace as the way to get going on a budget.

When a solo player gets carried with no gear he gets discouraged. You depend on getting carried and not finding your own gear and the game becomes boring fast.

Lesson: DON'T CARRY NEW PLAYERS for cheap gps. HELP NEW PLAYERS ACQUIRE GEAR AND LET THEM ENJOY being able to 4 shot a monster instead of 10 shot. The satisfaction comes from the gear upgrades not necessarily the masterquest.
Oki3Doki3
#12 Aug 30 2017 11:16am
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Quote (Paparick @ Aug 30 2017 04:59pm)
No (Expletive deleted) way!
I, as well as many other long-playing slashers earned our gear the hard way
and I will forecast a total desertion by everyone from the game were this to come to pass


This even me , I am newest generation of player and slowly i got my stuff ....
The key is determination and hard work like in other games
sp_patl
#13 Aug 30 2017 12:25pm
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Quote (IReadPoe @ 30 Aug 2017 07:47)
1) without a doubt, the biggest issue is that it is impossible and pointless for new players. I was struggling through exploring the lab by myself and managed to get to lvl 25 before partyplanner, my guild leader, randomly msgs me and invites me to do the MQ with him. didn't believe how that was possible but then he bought me some basic gear (lvl 25-30 gear for 20 fg) and our party goes 1-71 in TWO HOURS. I was pretty much useless after lvl 30 but that didn't matter.

I spent 3 days just grinding out 1-25 and in two hours, we do the entire MQ. That's absurd. The game is extremely unbalanced for the gap to be that large. There is no point in trying to solo this game. I was on the brink of completely stopping before he had msg'd me. The fact that I need the charity of someone else to have any chance at all of playing this game past lvl 25, let alone lvl 50, is a big problem and I feel the great majority of new players that have tried and stopped this game see this monumental task and immediately realize it's pointless.


2) The marketplace is too inactive to find decent newbie gear. There's simply not enough of what you need to be able to effectively progress beyond lvl 30 in a timely manner. You will dying too much and your gear will become obsolete pretty soon. You then have to refresh most of your gear every 10 levels. I can only imagine how difficult it is to find decent gear after lvl 50. I'm sure most rpg games have this issue but, to me, it seems like this item "decay" is much more prominent here.


3) The "Master Quest" is a game of luck. This whole time, I thought it was this big bad monster you had to fight at the end as a challenge but it turns out to be putting a key in a slot and hoping that you guess correctly. That was extremely disappointing.


4) The proficiencies take too long. I have to do the effusing/transmuting one like 200-500 times before I lvl up once. That seems like way too much work for a moderate improvement. Same goes for fishing and cooking. It should be easier to lvl up at the beginning and much harder to level later on to make it seem like it's worth it. I honestly just got discouraged by how long it takes and stopped completely which seems like a consistent issue across the board.


5) There's only one gear stat that matters, ee. The rest is pointless. I feel that a lot of time and creativity was spent coming up with these stat properties on items (most of which are really interesting) and none of them make the slightest difference. Most of the time, it's unnoticeable. An item could have max stats on almost every other property like mana consumption, damage return, jubilance, power shot, etc, and it wouldn't be worth anything without ee.


Those were my biggest issues with this game. I tried it, and I'm not quite sure how much longer I am willing to play.

For most of the old school players here who have great gear, I can definitely understand how it may be a fun game, especially in a party, but for me, someone who's just starting out with a relatively modest budget, there are simply one too many hurdles to jump through and not enough payoff. Seems like there's just such a gear inbalance that at some point soon after starting, new players are going to stop completely because they keep questioning themselves if it's worth it.




people have done sc climbs in 38minutes , there is quicker teams then partypoopers
We do 3 man hc climbs in 60-70 minutes .. i do solo climbs 3h - 4 in hardcore on most classes . it took me around 10 years to get to this point. (big fishes, good glyphs, suffusing comfreys , transmuting items to lvl 55. ..) You complain after a week ?
for gear you should make a topic in the forum. Only using the marketplace isnt that smart.
the proficiences are fine exactly the way they are. Work for it and earn them.


My guess you are more happy in Poe , thats more newbie freindly ;)

Just for info : we all started this game at some point and worked our way up. At a time where there was no abilities and also no gear on marketplace. it needed to be found first .

my 2 cents

This post was edited by sp_patl on Aug 30 2017 12:32pm
Oki3Doki3
#14 Aug 30 2017 02:40pm
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Quote (sp_patl @ Aug 30 2017 08:25pm)
people have done sc climbs in 38minutes , there is quicker teams then partypoopers
We do 3 man hc climbs in 60-70 minutes .. i do solo climbs 3h - 4 in hardcore on most classes . it took me around 10 years to get to this point. (big fishes, good glyphs, suffusing comfreys , transmuting items to lvl 55. ..) You complain after a week ?
for gear you should make a topic in the forum. Only using the marketplace isnt that smart.
the proficiences are fine exactly the way they are. Work for it and earn them.


My guess you are more happy in Poe , thats more newbie freindly ;)

Just for info : we all started this game at some point and worked our way up. At a time where there was no abilities and also no gear on marketplace. it needed to be found first .

my 2 cents


Amen sir
:hail:
IReadPoe
#15 Aug 30 2017 04:30pm
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Quote
people have done sc climbs in 38minutes , there is quicker teams then partypoopers
We do 3 man hc climbs in 60-70 minutes .. i do solo climbs 3h - 4 in hardcore on most classes . it took me around 10 years to get to this point. (big fishes, good glyphs, suffusing comfreys , transmuting items to lvl 55. ..) You complain after a week ?
for gear you should make a topic in the forum. Only using the marketplace isnt that smart.
the proficiences are fine exactly the way they are. Work for it and earn them.
My guess you are more happy in Poe , thats more newbie freindly ;)
Just for info : we all started this game at some point and worked our way up. At a time where there was no abilities and also no gear on marketplace. it needed to be found first .
my 2 cents



For starters, the main point I'm seeing is that LS is a "hard" game. It is literally the easiest game to play. you simply point and click. there's no dodging or even 3d motion to avoid spells. For better or worse, you can master this game within a week.

All you need is good gear. Period. Then you walk into cata, and point and click. There's hardly anything beyond that. Not that I'm saying Path of exile or d2 are better, but even if you have decent gear, while the game gets considerably easier, you still have challenges in making sure you don't die. Game skill (basics like dodging and moving) is still a part of it.

Path of exile is not "more newb friendly", it's more noob effective, meaning they guide you into the game as any game that wants new players should, same with diablo, but at the same time, contain immense depth. With LS, There's no introduction whatsoever.



From the responses, a lot of old school players feel I'm insulting their game and the time they've invested into this. For starters, I'm not insulting anything (or at least trying not to). I'm merely commenting on the issues I've run into. If you want to take that as insults/complaints, do so, but know that was not my intention, I'm just trying to offer reasons as to why this game hasn't taken off, beyond the graphics.

I ask that everyone here try to remain objective and view the game in the eyes of a POTENTIAL new player.



Responses listed below (that I feel are even worth a response):

Quote
1. Gear is important in most games. A solo walk through of diablo 2 or path of exile takes significantly longer than getting rushed. Party planner effectively gave you a rush.
2. Obviously with the number of players this is true. Use the trade forums for better success. Lots of games don't even have player market places and require you to join trade channels or forums (such as d2jsp)
3. A test of luck is one of the few ways to make it fair regardless of gear and skill. How would you if felt if you grinded to mq solo with self found gear (yes this is possible, lookup 'bufcore') only to get to the end and get stomped on?
4. We all know the prof levels, xp, and gains are disproportionate and suck. Most want a change, but at this point it's 'too late' there are already people at the top in most ladders from an exorbitant amount of dedicated time and would be unfair to take that away from them.
5. The other stats do matter, but yes significantly less. This is pretty true of most games I feel though. In diablo 2 why was pebotdz so valuable? It's +415 enhanced damage; would anyone use it if it had 0 ed? All games have a core set of stats that really matter, and then secondary stats. No biggy.
If you enjoy the grind, keep at it. Joel (partyplanner) climbs like 1-5 times a day and is more than happy to bring you along with him. Use that to your advantage, learn the game, acquire gear, get gud son.

1) Gear is the only thing that matters in LS.
5) EE is the only thing that matters in doing damage. With diablo, you have a lot of other stats that matter and the item system with runewords opens up a lot of interesting situations. Path of exile is even more interesting. Item values fluctuate depending on whether an item has a single property most of the time (like voltaxic and the lightning conversion) and then you have links and colors and a huge variety beyond that.


Quote
The guy is completely right on all 5 points. Just adding for the record that the game reset should actually be a RESET. Everyone loses everything and starts fresh. That is the way you can't just spend 20k on gear and never have to worry about anything until the rest of your life. This way no new player can catch up with an old fart that has been playing for years. (gear wise, not skill wise)

I don't think a reset is ever an effective way to handle these situations. It basically makes the years of hard work for other players worthless. That's a form of communism I could never support. You should be able to reap the rewards you worked for.


Quote
1) ladder slasher isnt an easy game.. you just need to put a lot effort and time into it to be good. you wont belong to the best just in 1 week. fast players can do a solo in 2,5 hours and a group climb in 35mins (with the right event).
2) market place could need a few upgrades indeed. there are several good ideas.. and i hope some of them get implemented anytime soon
3) mq is fine.. it would be bad if you could just pass every mq with your gear.
4) profs are fine.. this isnt meant to be done in 3 days.. i am playing since 8 years.. so do others. put in some more effort or just stay low on profs.
5) ee is the most important stat on weapons and attack/heal charms.. otherwise there are some other really important stats like dex/str/crit and other sidemods that can improve the quality of gear alot. some useless stats should be improved though.

Remember that we all started at one point.. so we all started with zero profs and gear.. if you think it is more fun to play with better gear (in my opinion it is ;) ) then just start upgrading and putting some effort into the game and you will slowly progress. got to struggle a bit if you want to be good at some things ;)


1) please read above in my statement about how easy it is compared ot other games. Effort is necessary, skill is not. The game is too basic to even have a quantitative "best" player. There is a extremely limited amount of information to learn and master.
3) MQ is a game of luck. Could you imagine if D2 ended in a5 being a shell game where you simply had to guess correctly 3, 4, 5, 6 times in a row to unlock the highest achievement. imagine baal is standing there waiting for you and a new menu dialougue pops up and asks you to pick a number 1-5. If you guess correctly, you guess again, and then again, and then again, and only when you answer the correct number 5 times in a row can you move onto hell mode.
4) not saying profs should be done in 3 days but there should be a least an indication of improvement for new players. I see 0/1000 and I immediately stop. It wouldn't even affect you because anyone who has built up a certain level would simply have that experience added on and you would move up in a proportional amount.

I'm not saying a bit of struggle shouldn't be part of any game. I'm saying that before I can even enjoy the fruits of my labor, there is zero motivation to advance considering how basic some of these challenges are. They're simply point and click challenges with the completion goal turned up way too high for new players like myself to even bother with.


Quote
When a solo player gets carried with no gear he gets discouraged. You depend on getting carried and not finding your own gear and the game becomes boring fast.

Lesson: DON'T CARRY NEW PLAYERS for cheap gps. HELP NEW PLAYERS ACQUIRE GEAR AND LET THEM ENJOY being able to 4 shot a monster instead of 10 shot. The satisfaction comes from the gear upgrades not necessarily the masterquest.


I 100% disagree with this. I was already on the way out due to how simplistic this game was before partyplanner msg'd me. The game itself does not encourage further play. If anything, by helping me, he made me want to play further. And as a reward for his kindness, I'm more than happy to give any GPs that I earn to his guild. That's such a minimal part of my enjoyment. And it seems such a petty thing to argue with someone for.

This post was edited by IReadPoe on Aug 30 2017 04:31pm
Paparick
#16 Aug 30 2017 04:52pm
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There is a saying -- attributed to a wise old individual, that goes something like this:

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen
Oki3Doki3
#17 Aug 30 2017 04:56pm
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for some reason its cruel Dad but its true ... if you dont wanna slash dont if you wanna let me know :hug:
JakeTheDog
#18 Aug 30 2017 07:15pm
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I'd say I'd be okay losing all my gear to a reset. The time I spent skilling my muter.... losing that would hurt..
IReadPoe
#19 Aug 30 2017 08:30pm
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Quote (Paparick @ Aug 30 2017 06:52pm)
There is a saying -- attributed to a wise old individual, that goes something like this:

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen


Quote (Oki3Doki3 @ Aug 30 2017 06:56pm)
for some reason its cruel Dad but its true ... if you dont wanna slash dont if you wanna let me know :hug:


Has nothing to do with the rigours of the game. Seems like both of you are misunderstanding. this is the last time I'm going to respond to posts like this:

I am simply giving perspective of what it's like as a new player trying to come and become part of the LS community. But the game itself has serious flaws that prevent people like me, people who are trying to find a new game to play, from continuing and having fun.


Quote (DarkxAngel @ Aug 30 2017 09:15pm)
I'd say I'd be okay losing all my gear to a reset. The time I spent skilling my muter.... losing that would hurt..


That wouldn't be fair to everyone who put in those years for the gear. All gear should be left the same. But new gear could be made with proper stats and buffs to some of the other lesser known stats to make them useful.
izParagonzi
#20 Aug 30 2017 08:36pm
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Constructive criticism noted. This won't change much, take it from a person that does not play the game the way everyone else does.

From level 1-15 you can basically use TierIII Armor / Main Charm with +200 max life and a basic 30% ee weapon.
Use Maps when Events increase the odds of getting gear within their Level cap, mostly 5 levels below cap for Level 1 (lvl10) to Level 10 (lvl20) maps.
Stat your character accordingly to surviving better so you do NOT lose profs when dying [softcore].
Re roll character if you find it harder to level up and don't have gear or people to carry you further.

Basically I solo 100% of the time since Heal Mastery got nerfed, I also use crap gear in some cases. My samurai's MQ items are:

Level 35 Longsword with 13x ee
Level 40 Armor with 47 strength
Level 55 Earth with +12 Crit Strike / +11 Life Steal [Life steal doesn't really work like it should]
Level 35 Focus with 100% ee

As you can see, 2 items are great, the rest are just junk, and they are NOT level 55 gear worthy. You only need to get 1 or 2 items to help you along the way.
So, start with cheap +max life gear from 1-25 ideally Tier equal level and from there, EE / Stat items, shit if you have int gear, you can still mq with a barb.

End of the story: Find a way around to play the game if you want to continue, otherwise don't play at all.
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