You can't compare "multiculturalism" in Africa with the one in Europe. Among the reasons I'd highlight two:

1. Europe has a long history of secular governments. We don't shove christianity down the throats of atheists/jews/muslims/buddhists/etc and our laws and ppunishments aren't based off what's written in the Bible or the Quran. In Africa this isn't the case because they don't have such a history. In most countries the state goes hand in hand with either highly conserative christianity or islam. The state is often in the hands of the majority relgion and will generally lmit the religious freedom of the minorities. In some countries like Sudan, where half was muslim and half was christian they've worked things out to divide the country into two seperate nations, and they are now doing ok. This isn't alwasy possible though due to geographical distribution, a poor state of democracy, economical inequalities, etc.

2. Unlike in Europe where multiculturalism has appeared through migration and is supposed to work like "you can keep your traditions, so long as they don't affect ours and you become integrated in our society", in Africa multiculturalism has appeared through the division of borders from foreign powers. You can have the right to tell the minorities in Europe to respect the laws and traditions of our countries because they willingly moved here. But this isn't the case in Africa. Minorities suddenly found themselves in a country run by an ethnic group that just happened to represent the greater demographic in the post-colonial era. It has always been their land and yet now they are told by others to adapt to their ways or fuck off... this often results in genocides, massive illegal deportations or just an awful repression.



I'm not saying it's absolutely necessary for a "fair trial or investigation" to happen to determine if someone is innocent or guilty. Leaked documents, footage, and so on can serve as evidence. With all kinds of crazy stuff being leaked nowadays, it is not impossible for something like that to happen.

And ok, I didn't mean neighboring country when I was talking about NATO (even though we've been ok with other countries on "our side" doing it, like Israel), I just meant invading any country around the world. Crimea was only officially invaded due to the coup.

And again, you are judging Russia and Putin by western standards. If there is no demand for a more transparent democracy, then there is nothing wrong with their current way of doing things. Just because we are happy and proud of our system it doesn't mean we should make it everyone else's.

The liberal media is evil. XD

An 'innate sense' is not to be relied upon in questions of morality. Neither is religion. Only the rational application of logic can guide one toward the path that ensures the least human suffering.

If you think that's all 'mumbojumbo' then you're only proving my point that 'evil' is a concept dreamt up by small minds to avoid having to think critically about something they have an 'innate sense' about.

Killing people because of difference of opinion is evil and eternally wrong. Oppressing people will always lead to more human suffering than liberty. So I am idiot because I put a name on something that serves to undermine individual rights, and in the end cause more human suffering?

I am happily an idiot then.

putin is not an amateur, you seem to forget that he has a kgb background. there will be no such leaks, they are about as likely as a russian court investigating him in relations to these murders... and again i have the strange feeling that i'm telling you things you already know but don't consider because it would expose a major flaw of your "no proof, no guilt" concept as the proof you'd require is close to impossible to produce in such a system...
like i already said, if you abandon common sense and hide behind such empty phrases, barely disguised as principles, you can deny any connections - if you do your research, however, and apply some common sense, it's really impossible to ignore. but ok, to each their own, you've chosen your path in this case...

just wondering, if you did the same for the tens of thousands of critical journalists, activists, teachers, politicians, military commanders... that erdogan arrested in the months after the alleged coup attempt, you really shouldn't have picked turkey as an example for how bad "our side" is.
according to your "principle", all these charges against them could be justified and unless there is "proof" by an independent turkish court of law (good luck) or some kind of "leak" that documents erdogan fabricating them to strengthen his de facto dictatorship, it's nothing we should worry about or judge...


and no, concerning the annexation of crimea, the "official" reason given by russia, its legality, and its perception and evaluation by the international community, i'd strongly recommend doing your research as well: maybe read this short introduction and expand from there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation#United_Nations_resolutions


lastly, how do you come to the conclusion that there is "no demand" for a more transparent democracy when movements, intellectuals, and reporters who are working on it are banned, disappear, are silenced, or turn up dead? if any attempt to spark a widespread interest in such things is suffocated? that's an incredibly flawed argument... i guess by that standard, there's "no demand" for more food in north korea, otherwise the ppl would be protesting and not electing those madmen over and over again...

I never said the referendum of the annexation of Crimea was legit and didn't deserve international uproar, I'm just saying that supporting a coup isn't any better and imo we deserve our own sanctions.

And it's funny how you talk about my "flawed arguments" when you are comparing Putin to Erdogan or Kim Jong-Un. Obviously it's not the same case. NK is a police state where you and your family are sent to a gulag if you say something that isn't in line with the government's official agenda. And Erdogan boasts about suppressing civil demonstrations and the purges he's making in the army, government, public services, etc... showing off a ridiculously long list of alleged traitors that were identified and proven guilty at supersonic speed, and defending capital punishment for them. He is basically admitting that he's an autocrat and he's proud of it

When has Putin purged Russia and boasted about it? When has he suppressed civil demonstrations? When has he faced a long succession of massive riots? When has he sent the members of other political parties to gulags?

Well then. Far be it for me to destroy your happiness by guiding you to the truth.

Ignorance is bliss after all.

This post was edited by Scaly on Mar 17 2017 07:27pm

Russians arent evil they are just fucked up in the head due to the 25+ years of daily propaganda that was being fed to them(at least majority of them, kind of like North Koreans)...and are the #1 threat to world stability living in their 19th-20th century imperialistic mindsets. Threatening the world with nukes? It wasnt just NK that was doing it but Russia as well when they took Crimea. Their government? The KGB/nkvd/cheka only lost its power during 91-99...but when putin got elected they are back in buisness. The most despicable thing on the planet bar none. Nothing comes close to bolsheviks in body count.

This post was edited by bioshocker on Mar 17 2017 07:31pm

i do NOT support the western coup in the ukraine either (although it would be rather naive to assume that russia didn't also try to massively influence ukrainian elections) but that was not my point, i'm saying that invading and annexing a significant part of a country is way worse. again, if this was a legitimate and equal response, it would mean mayhem and war in basically every corner of the world.



so putin's long list of killed / imprisoned / silenced journalists and opposition is not proof enough but erdogan's is because he's even less subtle about it, so much for your "principle"...
btw, you have these "supersonic" trials with russian opposition as well...



are you even being serious right now? if so, you just further exposed your lack of insight into the matter. it's the same ridiculous conclusion you already drew when talking about how "happy" russians are and that there was no "demand for a more transparent democracy".
again, just because putin is successfully suppressing any opposition before it becomes a serious threat, that doesn't mean there is none and that it wouldn't be much stronger and much more visible (even for rather uninformed westerners), if key figures didn't keep dying, disappearing, being arrested, or otherwise silenced - and if the russian public was informed fairly and independently...

in fact, there WERE protests against putin which lead to hundreds of arrests, amongst them alexei navalny and boris nemtsov - do the names ring a bell? one arrested on bogus charges, the other one dead - pure coincidences to you, i know...
in addition to the arrests, even stricter laws against protests were introduced and organisers of anti government protests were raided, funds were seized, private citizens harrassed. seriously, mate - just do your research.

This post was edited by fender on Mar 17 2017 11:33pm

Thank you for your mercy.