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#51
Jul 20 2015 10:50am
Quote (duffman316 @ Jul 19 2015 10:58pm)
in 2009 45,000 americans died every year from lack of access to medical care because they didn't have health insurance
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/09/18/us-usa-healthcare-deaths-idUSTRE58G6W520090918

despite the image portrayed by conservative mythology, canadians are not dying in large numbers on waiting lists by comparison
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/effect-of-wait-times-on-mortality-in-canada.pdf


44,000 Canadian women over 16 years, now multiply be 10-11x to account for population. Is 20-40,000 population adjusted deaths not "a lot" for you?

Edit: I'm being generous, if we take into account that your source only measured the impact on women the risk per female patient is significantly higher. If we adjusted for Canada's population growth over the last 16 years the impact would be even higher.

It seems like you just decisively defeated your own point.

This post was edited by bogie160 on Jul 20 2015 10:56am
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#52
Jul 20 2015 11:03am
Quote (cambovenzi @ 20 Jul 2015 02:52)
Universal patents are not "free market"

You hypocritically and ironically decry government blocking people from beneficial exchanges while advocating against free trade and for high trade barriers.


Quote
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The TPP would provide large pharmaceutical firms with new rights and powers to increase medicine prices and limit consumers' access to cheaper generic drugs. This would include extensions of monopoly drug patents that would allow drug companies to raise prices for more medicines and even allow monopoly rights over surgical procedures. For people in the developing countries involved in TPP, these rules could be deadly - denying consumers access to HIV-AIDS, tuberculosis and cancer drugs.

The TPP would establish new rules that could undermine government efforts to contain rising medicine prices in developed countries like the United States. U.S. federal and state governments tamp down the cost of drugs in public health programs by mandating cost reductions and negotiating lower medicine prices. But a leaked TPP text would restrict governments' prerogative to negotiate or mandate lower drug prices, including for taxpayer-funded programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and veterans' and military health programs. Pushed by U.S. negotiators, these proposed TPP rules threaten policies to make medicines more affordable for seniors, military families and the poor.

TPP would empower foreign pharmaceutical corporations to directly attack our domestic patent and drug-pricing laws in foreign tribunals. Already under NAFTA, which does not contain the new rules proposed for TPP, drug firm Eli Lilly has launched such a case against Canada, demanding $100 million for the government's enforcement of its own patent standards.


De-bunk
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#53
Jul 20 2015 11:09am
Quote (Valhalls_Sun @ Jul 20 2015 12:03pm)
De-bunk


Americans already finance the R&D on behalf of everyone else. The TPP is geared at sharing the load.

The United States does not negotiate drug prices, it takes the "market" rate. In a world where every other country either negotiates lower rates or rips off a generic version that means significantly higher prices.
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#54
Jul 20 2015 11:38am
Quote (bogie160 @ Jul 20 2015 11:09am)
Americans already finance the R&D on behalf of everyone else. The TPP is geared at sharing the load.

The United States does not negotiate drug prices, it takes the "market" rate. In a world where every other country either negotiates lower rates or rips off a generic version that means significantly higher prices.


Our high drug costs are not due to us propping up R&D. The top pharmaceutical companies consistently spend more on advertising than R&D by an order of magnitude. The cost of developing a drug is billions of dollars, but the overall spending of pharmaceutical companies turns that multi billion dollar R&D expenditure into a relatively small slice of their overall pie.

That multi-billion dollar cost is also including some bullshit, such as opportunity cost which is estimated VERY generously in favor of making the cost as high as it can go. When you look deeper the cost of developing a drug actually drops from multi-billion to hundreds of millions, and makes it a very tiny slice of expenditure by pharmaceutical companies.....
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#55
Jul 20 2015 11:50am
Quote (bogie160 @ 20 Jul 2015 12:09)
Americans already finance the R&D on behalf of everyone else. The TPP is geared at sharing the load.

The United States does not negotiate drug prices, it takes the "market" rate. In a world where every other country either negotiates lower rates or rips off a generic version that means significantly higher prices.



And the countries benefiting from the ability to get the generics are administering them freely to people who have no way to pay for them. The Cheap availability of some of these drugs is saving millions of lives. It will be a horrible mis-justice to take this away
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#56
Jul 20 2015 12:13pm
Medical Mistakes are 3rd Leading Cause of Death in U.S.

The Journal of Patient Safety recently published a study which concluded that as many as 440,000 people die each year from preventable medical errors in hospitals. Tens of thousands also die from preventable mistakes outside hospitals, such as deaths from missed diagnoses or because of injuries from medications.

http://journals.lww.com/journalpatientsafety/pages/default.aspx
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#57
Jul 20 2015 02:36pm
Quote (Valhalls_Sun @ Jul 20 2015 12:50pm)
And the countries benefiting from the ability to get the generics are administering them freely to people who have no way to pay for them. The Cheap availability of some of these drugs is saving millions of lives. It will be a horrible mis-justice to take this away


And yet you oppose bringing capital and jobs to the developing world. Do you want the truly poor to be better off or not?
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#58
Jul 20 2015 03:06pm
Quote (Valhalls_Sun @ Jul 20 2015 01:03pm)
De-bunk


Everything in TPP etc is not synonymous with free market. Stop trying to slander free traders by equating them with govt managed trade and government granted monopolist schemes.

Also, what you posted doesn't reconcile your own isolationist anti-trade anti-foreigner pro-overbearing regulation views with your sudden interest in allowing people to trade medicine freely.
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#59
Jul 20 2015 04:12pm
Quote (bogie160 @ 20 Jul 2015 15:36)
And yet you oppose bringing capital and jobs to the developing world. Do you want the truly poor to be better off or not?



I'm fine with bringing legitimate capital and jobs to the people of the developing worlds.....see the difference in our sentences? The corporations which settle in the low labor cost nations like Malaysia for instance are bringing capital only to the owners of those factories who....wait for it...are shell companies for American corporations. yes lots of capital. The labor is supplied by slaves and indigent workers who are starving and willing to work for food.

What I am for instead of further enabling corporations to exploit the poor and country-less humans of third world nations the building and maintaining of start-up employee owned businesses with charitable donations and low interest to 0% business loans that can bolster their economy.

Quote (cambovenzi @ 20 Jul 2015 16:06)
Everything in TPP etc is not synonymous with free market. Stop trying to slander free traders by equating them with govt managed trade and government granted monopolist schemes.

Also, what you posted doesn't reconcile your own isolationist anti-trade anti-foreigner pro-overbearing regulation views with your sudden interest in allowing people to trade medicine freely.



No Everything is not about free trade there is so much Bad stuff that it's hard to list it all. International Banking Laws that will allow Mega Banks to write new laws to circumvent the laws that cover any one nation. The Patent laws which we've been touching on in here a bit.

one thing I'd like to high light is that with the TPP passed there will be a board of Corporate advisers and lawyers who will answer to nobody but themselves and whoever owns them. they will form a Tribunal that will control 40% of the world's GDP That's just way too much power it seems to me.

I can go on, I linked earlier a good site that covers the Bad that is looming on our Horizon,
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#60
Jul 20 2015 06:35pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Jul 20 2015 05:38pm)
Our high drug costs are not due to us propping up R&D. The top pharmaceutical companies consistently spend more on advertising than R&D by an order of magnitude. The cost of developing a drug is billions of dollars, but the overall spending of pharmaceutical companies turns that multi billion dollar R&D expenditure into a relatively small slice of their overall pie.

That multi-billion dollar cost is also including some bullshit, such as opportunity cost which is estimated VERY generously in favor of making the cost as high as it can go. When you look deeper the cost of developing a drug actually drops from multi-billion to hundreds of millions, and makes it a very tiny slice of expenditure by pharmaceutical companies.....


Also they anticipate lawsuits for users who get those rare side effects. They set a few billion aside because they know like 1 in every 1,000 will have a dangerous side effect. I see it all the time drugs get commercialized on television and then like 5-10 years later there is a law firm advertising that if you were effected by this drug you are entitled to financial compensation.
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